US system is not as inefficient as I once thought

It is difficult to say which is the 'better' system. Internationally practice has tended towards North American 120/240 volt (with 440-600v or so for industrial loads) and European 230/400 volt. Each system has its good points and its weak points and everyone tends to be comfortable with the system they are used to. There imperatives that applied in the past (eg co-ordination with long distance open wire telephone circuits).

It is rather like two department stores in a city I know. One is 'up marhet' and the other one 'average market' (the history of this one is quite amazing). The then Managing Director of the up market store refused to be drawn on a comparison but merely stated that they were founded in entirely different circumstances. Discussion of voltage systems would be similar.

I doubt that there is any advantage going above 250/433 volts for general use. A higher frequency may be of some advantage for transformer design and because any induction or radiation effects might do less damage (indeed if this is significant in any case) to the body at say 80Hz.

I have previously wondered about an 'intermediate' voltage for lower density developments (with long services to residences) where underground reticulation is mandatory. A 11,000/230 volt transformer (fed by two phases - no HV neutral) at each house, cabling and fuses would be expensive, but a 1,000 volt scheme could be viable especially as it could use standard LV reticulation and service cable. However as 'off the shelf' transformers for this use would not have been available, I gave this away without too much further thought.

Reply to
Peter
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I read in sci.engr.electrical.compliance that Peter wrote (in ) about 'US system is not as inefficient as I once thought', on Sun, 5 Oct 2003:

A higher frequency that 60 Hz might be OK for wholly overhead distribution, but the capacitance of underground cables is large and causes significant loss even at 60 Hz.

I believe the US used to use 4 kV for street-level distribution but demand has resulted in the voltage being progressively increased.

Reply to
John Woodgate

But a limiting factor in many transmission line loads is the reactance of the line. I^2R heating is not always the limiting factor.

Raising the freq. to 80 would make this worse. The total power than could be delivered over a line would correspondingly drop. Not sure if savings in transformer costs would offset the change in transmission capacity.

daestrom

Reply to
daestrom

I heard that Eurpoean vacume cleaners for homes are much more powerful than American ones. In USA, the 120V, 15A circuit breaker limits a useful appliance to 1440 watts (about 12 amps at 120VAC). With 230VAC (assuming same 12 amps), twice more powerful appliances can be used without having to install the expensive 30 circuits (in USA, washing machines, cloth dryers, electric ranges that use 240V and/or 30 amp circuits are pre-wired in the utility room or kitchen for that reason). It would be nice to be able to run a powerful 230V, 15 amp machine from each electric socket (for example, a powerful window mounted air conditioner, high-speed color copier, or 3000 watt bathroom heater after taking a shower on a cold winter morning). The most exciting & useful product would be a 3600 watt hair dryer that gurantees "15 seconds to dry your hair or your money back !!!"

Reply to
Nam Paik

I guess that is why "powerful" window shakers come with a NEMA 6-15 (230v) plug on them. There is absolutely no reason why you can't have 230v on every wall. It just doesn't seem that necessary.

Reply to
Gfretwell

More like 10 amps (Australia & NZ) and 13 amps (UK) for standard outlets. Still 2300 watts is better than 1440 watts.

Reply to
Peter

15 amp outlets are available in Oz/NZ if you need them (dryers/dishwashers and the like) - the only difference is larger earth pin.

Cameron:-)

Reply to
Cameron Dorrough

Kitchen and laundry rooms contain 20A circuits wired with 12 AWG wire (4mm^2) as opposed to the normal 15A with 14 AWG wire (2.5mm^2). There is usually a dedicated circuit for the washer, and two or more general purpose circuits for the kitchen. This increases the power to 1920W continuous / 2.4kW intermittent. (US code allows for 100% of rated draw for intermittent appliances). When wired for electric clothes dryers, the utility room will have a dedicated circuit of 30A 120/240V. The norm is for the dryer to use a

120V drum motor and timer and 240V elements. When wired for electric ranges, stove tops or ovens, dedicated 120/240 circuits of either 40A or 50A are provided. For gas appliances, 120V general purpose outlets are used. AFAIK, the only application for 30A 120V circuits is for small to medium sized recreational vehicles. The larger recreational vehicles use 50A 120/240V

Window / through wall air conditioners with a load under 1440 VA generally use Nema 5-15 (15A 120V plugs). Good for nice, big light dips at startup. Between 1440VA and 1920VA it's a tossup whether they are

120V or 240V. Above 1920VA they are pretty much all 240V. A major design constraint for products like copiers is to get the draw under 1440VA. Light dips on copiers are also much more noticeable when the copier / laser printer starts up. Making them less than 1440VA is an indirect way to force efficiency! (Don't tell me the Americans don't care about efficiency, we can make copiers run on less power than in the EU, and we don't use 3kW bathroom heaters!) ;-)

Matthew

Reply to
Matthew Beasley

Plug in a North American vacuum into a EU outlet, and it's much more powerful than the EU one for a few seconds.

The flames that follow are a bummer on the other hand.

;-)

Reply to
Matthew Beasley

Correct - I omitted this aspect for brevity as 10 amp outlets remain the usual type.

Reply to
Peter

I've noticed that 240 volt window air conditioners are rapidly becoming obsolete. Back in the 1970s, it was pretty much a given that all 17,500 BTU air conditioners ran off of 240 volts. But several days ago, I happened to notice a 17,500 BTU window air conditioner at Wal-mart that can run off a standard 120 volt receptacle. With an EER of 11, I suppose it's not hard to see why. If you look through some of these newsgroups, a post will crop up from time to time asking how to convert a 240 volt air conditioner receptacle into a 120 volt one. I suppose times are changing for window air conditioners. Although, I'm sure that central air conditioners will remain

240 volt for some time to come.

Robert

BTW how do you Europeans measure the capacity of air conditioners anyway? Since the BTU is defined as the amount of heat needed to raise the temperature of one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit, I'm assuming that such a measurement is not used in Europe. Do you judge your air conditioners by the calorie?

Reply to
Robert Calvert

BTU/hr is still referred to in much of Europe at least (maybe all, but I don't claim to know it all). However, I don't think it is ever quoted without also quoting the equivalent kW rating. In my experience in last 5 years in UK, it's normally worked out in kW now, but you do get the odd appliance (typically a US computer system) which only gives you its requirements in BTU/hr and you have to convert.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

Then to really add to confusion, the British Government's Board of Trade many years ago established the Board of Trade unit (sometimes erroneously called BTU!) meaning 1 kWh, hence the term 'units' of electricity is quite common.

Reply to
Peter

Maybe the BTU's are going the way of the Horsepower. Now, you can get a 7-1/2 HP compressor that runs on a 15 amp 120 volt circuit. (Note to John - that's SINGLE phase) A knowledgeable salesman at Sears explained it to me, "Them are Madison Avenue Horsepower."

I've also noticed that 12 ounce steaks at the restaurants are getting smaller as well.

Reply to
BG

X-No-Archive: Yes

A 120V incandescent lamp is more efficient than the same wattage 240V lamp within the common residential wattage range(40-100W). For that matter, a 12V lamp is even more efficient. Personally, I think that the higher incandescent lamp efficacy at 120V more than makes up for higher I^2R wiring losses in residential buildings.

We have most of "major" appliances such as dryer, air conditioner, water heater, electric furnance and stove/oven on 240V anyways.

Which voltage do small transformers operate more efficiently? I am talking about 5-15VA mini transformer you'll find in just about all alarm clocks, wallwarts and small electronics.

i.e. 120V to 8V AC 15VA vs 240V to 8V 15VA

Reply to
AC/DCdude17

Why? Are you a DimBulb clone?

How do you figure? There *is* IR loss in the wiring.

Sure, to minimize IR loss.

Does it matter? The losses associated with distribution are upstream of the device. The higher the voltage the better. ...until safety becomes an issue. ;-)

Reply to
Keith R. Williams

Look at lumen outputs of 120V verses 240V filament lamps which are otherwise identical. The ideal filament lamp voltage for 100W lamp is around 55V, and as you design lamps to run on voltages further away from this figure in either direction, their efficiency drops off.

Sure. Something I really notice about this as a frequent visitor to the US is the voltage drop effects on lighting levels -- it seems rather common that lights noticably change in intensity level when other appliances switch on/off. This is very much rarer in the UK, and even when visible (mostly only rural areas with a long 240V supply line), it happens to a very much less degree here. This would imply to me that the US routinely entertain significantly higher I²R losses at least on the supply side to the panel than we normally do in the UK.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

If, as you claim, The ideal filament lamp voltage for 100W lamp is around 55V, then I could put two filaments in series and have a 110V 200W lamp with the same efficiency.

Or I could put two filaments in parallel and have a 55V 200W lamp with the same efficiency.

I could replace the two series filaments with a single one that's twice as long and get the same result.

I could replace the two parallel filaments with a single one that's twice as thick and get the same result.

In fact, I can pick a thickness and length that gives me the same efficiency for any wattage or voltage I choose.

So why, you may ask, are the 12V bubs more efficient than 120W bulbs with the same wattage and physical size?

Because they run hotter filaments.

The low voltge bulb has a shorter, thicker filament which makes it physically stronger.

The shorter, thicker filament can also take more loss from the tungsten boiling off before it burns out.

Light bulb designers know this and raise the filament temperature (which reduces life and boosts efficiency) just enough to balance the longer life from the shorter, thicker filament.

Reply to
Guy Macon

Yes.

Yes.

No.

No.

You are failing to take into account increased need for filament supports (which conduct heat away from the filament), size of bulb and differing convection currents (which effect how much heat is convected away from filament), heat conducted from the filaments by the lead-in wires depending on filament thickness, and that the surface area of the filament (from which light is emitted) doesn't scale linearly with the crossectional area of the filament.

When you do take these into account, that's where the 55V figure comes from. However, it's not a rapid drop when you move away from 55V, but it's getting pretty bad when you get to 240V.

I suggest you patent that, because the lighting industry has been looking for such a method for 100 years. Coiled and coiled-coil filaments is about as good as it's found so far.

It also conducts more heat away from the filament. A 24V lamp would waste less energy conducted away from the filament at its ends because the wire is thinner, and also because it's longer a greater proportion will be away from the ends where this particular loss occurs.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

Yep!

I have a whole bunch of crap in our house that SHOULD have been designed to run on 240 but plugs along at 120.

Examples: Coffee Maker, Toaster, Microwave Oven, Electric Iron, Hair Dryer, Water Bed Heater, Dishwasher, Clotheswasher.

This stuff draws from 3 to 15 (plus) amps.

Maybe the NEC should start to require at least ONE 240 volt outlet in the kitchen and bath. For safety reason, of course, CHEAP 240 volt GFCIs would come on the market.

Even BUILT IN microwave ovens and dishwashers (that typically heat the water) run on 120 volts. Is that crazy or what?

Reply to
John Gilmer

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