Framon 2 problem after duplication using HPC Speedex replacement wheel sold by HOME DEPOT

When you guys read the manual Framon has concerning Kwikset spacing, or at least the one I have from 2000, keep in mind if you go from the 1 cut to a 5 cut for example or lower, the spacing recomended by Framon is off, IF YOU USE A WHEEL FROM HOME DEPOT, for 25 bucks that has a (more rounded cutting edge or others with a round edge).

The Framon book says all bottom flat cuts (where the pin rides) are .050" wide. When using the standard cutting wheel from HOME DEPOT or others that are rounded on the cutting edge on your duplicater you should subtract from the .050" on the deepest cut, the deeper you go with the next cut being next door while staying within MACS by about about .003 to .004 per depth.

If you duplicate a key by code using the book by Framon as of 2000 with the standard cutter on the Framon with the Home Depot cutting wheel on the duplicater, the upper cut, the 1 cut, will not line up with the bottom pin because the deep cut, the 4 cut in this example, is too wide causing the 1 cut to ride on the slope of the 4 cut making the short 1 cut pin ride low on the 4 cut slope. This can be complicated do to the fact that Black and Decker, the owner of Kwikset puts out other products that are not as accurate in spacing, plus ALL the other locks like 3 or 4 overseas locks that use this keyway or even a few in the states, this happened because this keyway is common here.

If you shorten the deep cuts from .050" wide as recomended in the 2000 Framon manual when they come next to a shallow cut using the STANDARD cutting wheel Framon puts out to .035" or .040" on the deep cut especially when using LAB pins with the more pointed bottom tip that comes in contact with the key, it will solve the problem where your duplicates dont work even though your originals cut on the Framon do work.

Take the plug out of a lock and with it pinned up to specs, insert the duplicate key and the key cut on the Framon to notice the problem with the spacing specs Framon has in their 2000 book. If this has already been talked about, and/or takin' care of, sorry.!

It all boils down to the rounded aftermarket cutting wheels cutting off the upper and lower ramps on the 1 cut next to the 4 cut or deeper during duplication because Framon in the book I have doesn't compensate for it in their saying all depth cuts should be .050" wide on Kwikset spacing. Think about it. A deep .050" cut will effect a shallow cut. This seems easy to notice but it can cause problems when you are working late and tired..

Framon, please take this into accountif you already have'nt.

BTW, I love Framon machines.

Glen

Reply to
Glen Cooper
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Damn, sorry Glen, maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but, why would you be using a $25 cutting wheel from 'HOME DEPOT' on your code machine ?? I pay about $275 for my 'original' and 100% accurate code machine cutters, and every cut on every key is sweet. As I said, maybe I read ya post wrong. Cheers mate.

Reply to
Steve Paris

About 2/3 of the way into the post, he mentions folks at HD having a hard time copying keys. Do you think that was the purpose of the entire post?

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

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Reply to
Stormin Mormon

I think you guys are mis-reading the post. The way I read it is that he is cutting an original key on the Framon machine then making a duplicate of that key on another machine he has that has the Home Depot cutter on it. I do that to save wear and tear on my Framon but I still buy name brand cutters for the second and third machines. I don't cut hundreds of keys a month so it isn't a big problem for me though.

Leon Rowell

Storm> More inserted.

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Reply to
Leon Rowell

FYI, duplicating a Titan key requires almost a slotting cutter as well. THEN you can slope the tip bound edge as needed. and AFAIK, you cannot cut #1 pin of a Titan on a Framon. it wipes the shoulder out.

--Shiva--

Reply to
--Shiva--

Yes this is what I was saying. Sorry for the confusion. The 25 dollar cutting wheel is only available online and it is for the HPC Mini Speedex duplicator. I didn't know it had a rounded surface because the picture on the HD site isn't too good.

I posted this to let others know the problems with the HD wheels. I learned that aftermarket duplicator cutting wheels can cause problems from original wheels. I tried to save a little money and lost out.

My Framon has the original wheels and they are still in good shape. I may have quoted my post wrong last night but it was about 1:30 or 2:00 A.M. at the time. I'll go back and read it again.

Glen

Reply to
Glen Cooper

Wow! I just read it again and confused myself!

Reply to
Glen Cooper

Glen,

If I read your problem correctly you are having a problem in duplicating the Kwikset keys you have cut on your Framon.

If you are cutting only a .050 flat on your Kwikset keys, this may be your problem. If you look at the framon website:

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You will note that the flat width on their Kwikset cutting wheel (FC9090) is .090. If you are cutting the flat at .050 and then use a duplicator that has a rounded end for duplicating you will make the effective flat less on the duplicate.

The solution to this is to widen the flat on the code cut key to .090 and then the reduced flat will cause you no mischief assuming that the center of the cut in relationship to the shoulder is proper. To test the center dimension key up a Kwikset lock with pointy lab pins that are .005 to .010 longer than called for. Cut a test key by using the standard cutter with the .045 flat and plunge cut only a biting of 11111.

Your test key should turn, but it will be tight. The points of the pins will leave witness marks on your test key. Inspect these marks to see if they appear to be centered. If the marks are fore or aft on the test key, your spacing may need to be adjusted on the Framon.

A word of caution here. If you look closely at the blank, the upper and the lower shoulder are not even but they are real close. sometimes aftermarket blanks will have even shoulders and originals will not. Factor this in when cutting.

Depth adjustments should not be utilized to correct the geometry problem of the rounded vs. sharp edges.

Reply to
Roger Shoaf

MY framon book... cira 96.. says the cuts shall be .080 wide on a KW --Shiva--

Reply to
--Shiva--

Your right. This is what I should have said. I was thinking .050" would have been better and I confused the two. Dang dyslexa I guess or maybe I'm going senile.

Reply to
Glen Cooper

The HD cutting wheel on the duplicator is round instead of pointed at the cutting edge. The Framon manual says you can use the standard Framon cutting wheel to originate a key, however the degrees on the standard Framon cutting wheel take off too much brass on the 1 cut flat spot when a 5 cut is next to it. The original key cut on the Framon will work but when you duplicate it using the HD wheel on the duplicator the round cutting surface on the duplicating wheel rounds off the flat spot on the number one cut causing the number one bottom pin to run low because instead of the bottom pin riding on the flat spot it now rides on the slope.

I made a mistake as Shiva pointed out by saying the Framon manual said the cuts should be .050" wide. I ment to say the book says the cuts are .080" wide. Ironicly, the .050" cut would allow for proper spacing using the standard Framon cutting wheel by allowing the number 1 cut flat spot to be wide enough to solve the problem of the pin riding on the slope. Again, sorry for the bad quote.

Glen

Reply to
Glen Cooper

If I am reading this correctly, the problem you are having is duplicating a code key made on the Framon. You are trying to duplicate it on a Speedex that has a cutter from HD. My suggestion is that when you changed the cutter to one with a different shape you didn't change the guide. That is the cause of your problem. If the shape of the guide isn't an exact match for the shape of the cutter you will never produce good keys. Every key you duplicate will have a wider root in the cuts. You need to change the guide to match the shape of your cutter.

This is not the fault of your Fram>

Reply to
Billy B. Edwards Jr.

Wait a minute here, the standard cutter has a 90 degree angle, the Kwikset wheel with the .090 flat has a 100 degree angle. This means the standard cutter intrudes *less* than the Kwikset cutter, mot more.

I suspect you are doing something wrong.

The original key cut on the Framon will work but when you

Allow me to suggest a test. Cut a single cut on your Framon and then duplicate this single cut several generations on your duplicator. compare the original with the 3rd or 4th generation and it will amplify your problem.

Reply to
Roger Shoaf

I love the Framon. It's not their fault.

The guide is the problem as you point out, or should I say I'm the problem for being too cheap to buy an HPC cutting wheel for the duplicator. You learn from your mistakes.

I'm going to chunk my HD wheel and buy the HPC with the edge that matches the guide which never gave me a problem. They just cost alot more.

I really wanted to bring the quality of HD cutting wheels to light when used on a Mini-Speedex duplicator.

Glen

Reply to
Glen Cooper

Old saying still stands the test of time " Ya only get what Ya pay for " Cheers Glen.

Reply to
Steve Paris

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