Segal "Pick-proof"

You're refering to the "Hines System?

Newnsie

Sounds like it. I've got one of those in my collection.

Basically, the concept was that the cylinder was designed with a trap mechanism built into it. A normal key would operate the lock properly. Picking stood _very_ high odds of activating the trap.

Unfortunately the trap state was such that *NO* key would operate the lock; it had to be removed from the door to reset it. This made it of limited value unless the protected space had a second door which had not been tampered with.

If you need not only to protect a space but to have an unmistakable signal that someone tried to get in, the Hines system might have some value. But that's an uncommon set of needs; most of us are more concerned with simply keeping people out than with knowing we were attacked, and almost any real high-security locking system will achieve that.

I might be...I have basically no information about it whatsoever. I merely ran across the Federal Apellate Court case between the FTC and Segal over the pick-proof claims. Apparently, the FTC allowed the locksmiths that could pick the lock to pick it without their methods being disclosed to Segal (trade secret protection exception). The appellate court upheld the FTC's decision, and there is no discription of the lock or the specialized method to pick it.

Since it would have been patented prior to 1976, I can't simply search for the patent drawing at uspto.gov without knowing the patent number.

Anyway, what is the "Hines System"?

Thanks,

I'd like to get my hands on some more kinds of high-sec locks to work on my picking skills. I just had a blast looking all over my floor after dropping a Dom cylinder with it's retainer off. :( Time to clean.

I did go to a locksmith swap last Sunday and had a blast digging though all the stuff. Are there any other locksmith meets coming around in my area (I'm in Boston, MA)?

The yearly Yankee swap's the only one I know of nearby. I've lost track of where and when they run, unfortunately.

That's a shame....

When I closed up my store, I either gave or threw away a lot of stuff that some would consider "JUNK".

Newnsie

Ok, thanks for the info! I take it the cylinder is sort of a pin tumbler version of a detector lever lock...but gone insane such that you cannot throw the detector back? So if you overraise a pin stack, it becomes traped? So impressioning is right out then! Do you happen to have a patent number on your lock, so I can just get the patent drawings and see for myself?

Thanks

Not quite that mechanism... but yes, impressioning runs the same risk. I'd sorta rather not go into detail on an open newsgroup, though I _think_ knowing the mechanism won't do much except convince folks not to argue with it.

I believe the Hines also carried hardened inserts to prevent physical attack.

Not a bad solution, for a specialized set of needs.

They had something called the "Hines key system". Three of the drivers had a hollow end. And there were circle shaped holes in the plug, adjacent to the pinholes. The bottom pins each had a wafer (master pin). So if you used a key with a cut too shallow (or tried to pick) the odds were good that one of the top pins would catch on the side of the plug. I did that by accident once, and it really jammed the heck out of the cylinder.

Great system. The home owner would never know about the pick jam system.

I always wondered what Hines key system was. seems to me there would have to be holes in both sides of the plug so it would work on both left and right handed doors.

I used to have some old locks -- Harloc, Schlage wafer style knob locks, some real old Weiser. I keep being tempted to pitch them in the trash, I seldom or never see the old equipment any more, and now days if I see one, it's cause I'm upgrading to Kwikset or Titan.

Wonder if these old locks are worth anything to anyone?

Put them on ebay. Somebody will buy them.

My wife has a yearly garage sale. I dig up all the locks of questionable worth I've replaced over the year and sell them anywhere from $1-$5, depending on the lock, each with one key. I usually get rid of 90% of them this way. Last year the garage sale yielded around $200 for the locks. Better than tossing them in the trash and the only labor required is to drop a box of them on the ground with the other stuff.

Skip

Impressioning would work fine. They had a master wafer, which would be over the plug with the proper key. The drivers had a hollow end, which would drop into a circle shaped hollow on the plug.

Whoops! Sorry, I sent a descrip. Like you say, knowing the system doesn't make it easier to defeat.

c/would/could/. There's significant risk of impressioning one chamber to the wrong shear plane, at which point you're back into the trap state -- with the impressioned key caught in the lock, probably with your fingerprints on it. I seem to remember that they'd done a few things to increase that risk, though I couldn't swear to it.

Like I say, it's not a bad design.

Well, if all things are working wright, then impressioning would make a working key. Without going into the theory behind impressioning.

You're assuming the key doesn't become traped before completion.

And if pigs had wings they'd be pigeons... Yeah, maybe. Less likely for the folks who you'd care about keeping out, though. I'd hesitate to attempt it; I know my limits.