Take on "Bump' proofing.

Unfortunately, changing the depths from factory(OEM) depths will not change
the potential for 'Bumping' except for one particular case..... Most 'Bump'
keys are being cut using the lowest possible factory(OEM) depth.... i.e.
Schlage #9 .300 bottom pin. In my shop we have cut 'Bump' keys to the lowest
depth and then used a Pippen file lower them several strokes or about .005.
This allows for a #9 pin(Schlage) to still be able to develope the inertia
it takes to srike the top pin so that it can rise above the shear line and
catch. An exact depth of .300 would mean the slight rise would put the
bottom pin accross the shear line. Now what happens when someone(a thinking
locksmith) cuts a Schlage key with a #10(.185) cut and uses a #10 bottom
pin(.315) in his new combination choice??? The 'Bumpkey' cut between .300
and .305 is now rising accross the shear line as soon as the bumpkey is
inserted. 'Bumping' foiled!
I'm not testing every manufacture and assuring everyone that a lower cut is
possible, because that will be solely dependant on the shape of the
broaching. Radical angles can be the potential hinderance from this
procedure............ but, here in Australia, where Lockwood has remained
supreme for so many years, the C4 keyway is practically the standard here.
I know for a fact that the C4 keyway will allow for a #10 cut(refered to as
an 'A' cut by Instacode), and a #10 top bottom pin is totally available. We
have tried the regular 'Bumpkey' and it DOES NOT OPEN the lock.
Don't forget, in your hurry to try this, to remember to use the smaller
top-pin in combination with this larger bottom-pin. If you get cluey enough
to remember your MAX values, and use this larger bottom-pin next to a much
smaller one, you will find that normal picking becomes quite difficult.
Everything is possible when considering methods of keyless entry, but I'm
just offering a cheap and easy way to thwart the majority of attempts. The
absolute answer lies in locks that don't work with the standards we have
relied upon for years and years. The future will be interesting to say the
least.
Reply to
rifnraf
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I cannot see why anyone would waste time and money on trying to make bump proof cylinders by using rekeying techniques. Offer your customer a cylinder using the original medico design (NOT the garbage being offered today by Medico) and solve their problem. Of course using a nice 7 pin SFIC core will do just as well if it has the fingers on the side of the keyway. Anything that utilizes 2 or more axis will do the job beautifully. There are a number of companies offering their own version of the above designs, encourage these "little guys" by offering their hardware and inject a little competition in the marketplace. In the meantime, try to bear in mind that your customers come to YOU for high security locks, they already own the standard hardware and really don't need some funky excuse for a fix that they may already have, such as deep cuts in the front chambers of their existing cylinders and keys. Get it?
Reply to
Bill Halle
As expected, there are going to be people in our trade who aren't up to the challenge of fixing problems that currently exist, and decide that they are willing to expect more money from their customers for products the customer either can't afford, or really doesn't need. The practicality of our trade is the realization that the 85-90% of all residential needs will only involve KIK sets and cylindrical type deadlocks...... If my simple modification could make safer these 85-90% residential homes, then, why not?? I probably rekey 4-5 houses a day for people who request a change of keying, and I use these simple modifications to give my customer that edge needed by a changing environment. Bill would like to sell everyone a HS lock and make squillions of dollars doing this.............. just ain't going to happen. Bill has cut himself off from just about every residential neighbourhood in every metropolitan city of the USA......... and Australia......... Bill, I am sure your drive in this business is the dollars you make, so I'll challenge you to your daily bottom-line figure you make for the business............. ON the average day, I bring in an average of $800-$1200 dollars a day.... I can do this 5-6 days a week. Bill, now "Do you get it"???
Reply to
rifnraf
There is a slight problem with #10 cuts, if they start becoming common, bump key makers will just lower their bump key cuts.
It is all a matter of 'horses for courses'. If someone indulges in activities (legitimate or illegitimate) where someone might want to do a 'clean' entry into his or her house, then he or she should definitely consider high security locks / cylinders.
There was a case in USA a few years back where a private detective was foiled by a Medeco lock on a rather nondescript apartment and a 'journalist' writing this up made great play of this. The detective had been paid by business interests to get the 'dirt' on the occupant and could not find anything. The 'journalist' was engaged to write and spread the ensuing 'story'. This had world-wide supporters of the woman laughing their heads off. She had administrative jobs in lawyers offices and was well aware of the need to have a high security lock fitted to the office door to keep snoops right out and felt she needed the same for her apartment.
Reply to
peterwn
I absolutely agree with you........... there is definitely a need for HS locks.. My point was the need for something that the average or below wage earner can afford to do now. Yes the 10 pin could get around................. Let's just keep this fix between us for now. Besides, picking and 'Bumping" are far from being the common entry for the average badguy.
Reply to
rifnraf
Some people think that high security replacement cylinders are very expensive. That is a myth. I buy Medeco mortise cylinders 1 1/8 long with 7 keys, 2KA x AR cam. I use the Lori tubular deadbolt and including all costs the job is charged at $290.00 . When I am done installing the lock and security strike, the only way someone is going to get past that lock is to break the door, period. That price point has almost no resistance as long as the customer understands that the installation will be top notch.
The low profile Lori tubular deadbolt has served me well for over 25 years, it should make money for you too.
Reply to
Bill Halle
$290 is WAY more than a lot of people will pay. High security locks are overkill for most residential applications that don't need strong protection against surrepticious entry anyway. I have seen Medeco deadbolts on a door with a pane of glass big enough to walk right through more than once.
Reply to
Steve
What good does a high security lock really do on the average residential property against the average low tech burglar who will ignore the lock and go for a window? Most high security locks I've installed on residences are either on apartments and condos with only one entrance and no easily accessable windows or on houses owned by people who specifically wanted to prevent covert entry usually from spouses and others operating on their behalf.
Reply to
Steve
Again, Bill, I have been doing this for way to long......... I've met locksmiths, who like yourself, are more than willing to put that high security deadbolt on someones front door....The profits are big and the costs are also...... Most can't afford your type of locksmithing. The locks should have been put on the back door and the customer should have been told about adequate lighting, movement sensors and the importance of having(or appearing to have) an alarm system. Customers should be told that the weakest lock is still of greater value to them than an unprotected window behind a tree or bush.... These are the things you do to help your customers protect themselves.... it's part of your job. Honesty and integrity should be a part of business practice. Profit and good business will follow you if you honestly try to achieve the best for your customers............. BY the way, $290 dollars for 1 deadbolt installed is a great deal of money to a very high percentage of people living in your country.
Reply to
rifnraf
When I moved into my house some years back, I had Medeco installed on all doors.
My rationale was to force burglars to break something to get in, so there would be physical evidence so the insurance company wouldn't argue.
My Father's house was broken into some years back, in the days when silver was very high. My photos of the busted door edge and jamb were quite effective. The tool was a pry bar of some kind. The lock was key-in-knob Schlage of some kind. We lost my Mother's silver. The guy was eventually caught - drug addict. But the silver was all gone.
Key control was a secondary reason, as was the ability to have limited-use service keys.
Pick resistance and bump resistance (although I did know of both issues) were not a real rationale, as none of my friends and family are wealthy enough to engage the attentions of thieves skilled enough to pick a lock, so pick resistance was a nice extra. What was essential was physical strength, so the break would be obvious.
Joe Gwinn
Reply to
Joseph Gwinn
You usually don't have to worry about them breaking something. They are happy to do it.
Reply to
Steve
right.. house, front, back, and garage door-3 knobs and 2 dbolts.. $100 for Kwikset or SIMILAR.. vs, 1500?? aint NO WAY.. besides, in my area, just KICK THE DOOR, it will open due to the VERY cheap frame used --Shiva--
Reply to
me
Average house around here has 3 - 4 doors that need to be secured not including the rollup garage door(s). Usually two locks per door. Also a dozen or more windows. #1 use for high security locks in residential applications is people who want to keep their ex whatever or people operating on behalf of the ex whatever from coming in without their knowledge. Lawyers and other professional and business people who work with seriously confidential doccuments for serious money seem to appreciate them too. The strike boxes that come with maxums do help with the kick in problem especially if you use the screws I use in them but the bottom line is for people not worried specifically about covert entry they are excessive.
Reply to
Steve
ROFLMAO
never seen the builders we got here.. there is NOTHING behind the strike hole for a screw to HIT. Sheet rock wont hold anything.
--Shiva--
Reply to
me
You're exagerating. 1. There is no sheetrock behind the strike. The sheetrock lies along the inner edge of the studs and will be cut flush with the face of the stud along the rough door opening 2. There is a stud behind the strike, although there is a gap to allow the door frame to be shimmed in which is standard framing 101. You are basicly claiming that there is no stud anywhere inline behind the strike which is impossible with any conventional framing. You just need a screw long enough to hit it.
Reply to
Steve
I have put 3" screws in and hit nothing.. the trim on the door jamb is all thats holding the entire door and frame in on the lock side. yeah, there IS a 2x4 there, but its so far back that any long screws are useless as far as strength.. add to that a hollow core exterior door, and you have nothing much. P*** poor builders
We had a tornado go through here last year and it blew an entire subdivision of houses down-all brick.. there was nothing behind the brick of structural strength OTHER THAN the 2 by 4"s..on top of that was an insulation board..
We ALSO got some old houses here.. 2x4, with 3/4" 1x12 on top of that, then the siding.. inside is the normal sheet rock.. THOSE houses are still doing fine as far as structural strength. AND they will hold a lock properly.
--Shiva--
Reply to
me
Then what's the trim attached to if not the stud? Standard door casing (trim) is only about 2 1/4 wide. There has to be something to fasten it to within a little over 2" back from the edge of the door frame. Drywall isn't going to hold it. Even if they totally half ass it and don't nail the frame itself to anything the casing still has to be nailed to something solid. Either the casing or the frame does or the door is either going to fall in or shift around and not sit right.
yeah, there IS a 2x4 there, but its so far back that
The screws in a strike box start at the back of the box so they are 3/4" or so deeper right off the bat. That said the gap can only be so much and making it bigger serves no purpose to the builder except to make the door frame harder to install. If you're putting in a standard 36" door you need a rough hole 38" - 39". Anything bigger serves no purpose. If it's too much bigger there isn't anything to attach the casing to. The casing has to overlap the studs. No matter how sloppy the work is there's a limit or you can't get a door in it.
add to that a
The only "hollow" core exterior doors I've seen are steel clad filled with composite.
Masonite or solid wood sheathing is stronger than blackboard. But nothing including a solid brick house is going to hold up to a direct hit from a strong tornado.
Reply to
Steve
the sheet rock, with a spit and a promise.. and paint..
Standard door casing
GEE, you are catching on..
36" door plus 5/8" wood on each side gives a door assembly of about 37" ..new doors dont measure 36 here, but under usually.. and if it was 39, thats 2" space right off the bat.. some seem to be bigger..
The casing has to
Some are 'filled', some have the honeycomb cardboard with a wood edge on the steel.-dont hit the steel too hard, it dents.
tornado didnt hit it, was just the near by winds that were going with it. THose the tornado hit were cleaned off to the foundation.
--Shiva--
Reply to
me

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