Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards

Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my 1994 Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time, but it keeps running forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff done as long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I'm uncomfortable running forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to. But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cycling the power off and back on does not effect this behavior.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. And, maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix the problem.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch in the front controlled by the apron lever. Its a pretty complicated bunch of wiring.

Please help, I do not know how to diagnose this?

Thanks,

Fred

pect one of them is the problem, or the switch

ted bunch of wiring.

Fred

WHATEVER YOU DO REMOVE THE POWER BEFORE DOING ANYTHING

Single Phase or Three Phase?

Whatever electrical component shifts the wiring to reverse seems to be stuck in the forward position. Perhaps the reversing switch handle has become free of the electrical contacts inside the reversing switch. OR since you mention there being relays in a box along with the "complicated wiring" there is a one or more relays perhaps stuck in the operating position.

AFTER REMOVING POWER check the relays to determine whether the armature, the thing that moves along with the contacts, actually moves and the contacts associated with the armature move with them.

My best guess. There is a relay associated with reversing that is stuck in the operating or energized position.

What Zip Code is the lathe at?

Bob AZ

th the lever switch on the apron. =A0I can

er switch work each time, but it keeps running

is is at least aggravating. =A0But, I can get stuff

eration that I'm uncomfortable running

ron lever in the neutral position when the start

pron lever position, as it's not supposed to.

en the start button is pushed. =A0Cycling the

let the thing cool down and get these threads

pect one of them is the problem, or the switch

nch of wiring.

This is almost certainly a problem with your electrical service. I'd suggest you call the power company right away.

John Martin

suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch

It's an early 1990's model. It's single phase 110 volts now. Supposedly it can be converted to 220. I would love to convert it. I could figure out how to convert the motor but not the wiring in the panel. I think there are two wires to change in the panel when converting to 200. It wasn't clear how to change them so I didn't.

I'm not sure how to tell which relay does what. There are 3 or 4 relays in the panel box. I'll investigate in the morning. There's not much room behind the machine. ....another example of "failure to plan ahead". Perhaps the reversing switch handle has

This is probably one in the panel

Thanks, I'll look closer inside the panel tomorrow, after I cut off the breaker.

Fred

If you have mirco switches in the controls, one of them may have built enough metal dust inside to short out, keeping the circuit active, even if the handle is moved to a different position. I have had that experience twice with the Graziano lathe I own. It's easy enough to check for shorting by disconnecting the micro switch from the circuit, then testing for continuity on the circuit that should be normally open when the lathe is in neutral.

Harold

Thanks, I'll look closer inside the panel tomorrow, after I cut off the breaker.

Were 28205 real close I would fix it. Do you have a wiring diagram? There would probably be more than 2 wires to change for 220. 2 in the motor and I am not sure how many for the controls.

Bob AZ

suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch

can be converted to 220. I would love to

the panel. I think there are two wires

them so I didn't.

Do you have a manual for it?

For that matter, hopefully the manual will have the wiring diagram for the relays, which would be a big help in the diagnostics.

And -- could you *please* set your line length to something like

However, if the lever is set up with cams to actuate microswitches in the pedestal under the headstock, it might be that chips have managed to leak in over time and build up enough to stick one of the microswitches cam levers in the on position, so cleaning out chips around the cams might make the difference. So -- it may not even be inside the microswitches (which are normally rather well sealed, anyway -- though a short could build up at the terminals on the backs of the switches. But my first bet is something keeping one of the cam rollers from finding a detent in the cam on the rod from the carriage.

Hmm ... closer to me (near Washington DC) but still a bit far for just popping in to look.

Good Luck, DoN.

What is a Clausing clone?

Wes

Can't you contact the importer for help? Do you have, or can you get a schematic wiring diagram? Doesn't sound like rocket science to troubleshoot it if you have the schematic. But, this sort of problem seldom gpes away on its own. So I would not trust the machine until the situation is resolved. You could also start an unwanted "smoke test" of the wiring, instead of having a single problem to solve. Might be a good time to hire and "electric motor guy". Most electrical contractors can put you on to the type of technician you need. ----But, I'd sure try to get a wiring diagram first.

Pete Stanaitis

-----------------

Fred wrote:

The lathe worked fine yesterday morning and I was able to cut my threads. After it got warm, it again would only run in forward.

After the machine has run awhile it cannon be cut off with the apron lever switch will only run in forward (even in the neutral or reverse apron switch position). I can push the button on the reverse relay and get the motor running in reverse. I know this is not the preferred method.

I found electrical schematics drawings that look like my lathe's wiring and I have an voltage meter. How to I diagnose exactly what is going wrong here?

I think I understand the switches, transformer and relays. And, how to change the lathe to 220v. I do not understand what the "Heating Relay" does.

I have posted a photograph of the electrical panel box and the schematic drawing on my website.

Fred

lever switch on the apron. I can switch

work each time but it keeps running

least aggravating. But, I can get stuff

operation that I don't feel comfortable running

lever in the neutral position when the start

lever position, as it's not supposed to.

the start button is pushed. Cutting power

one of them is the problem, or the switch

it would act normally for a while. And,

tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix

Take a look at your "inching button" it could well be stuck in or have welded contacts. The "Heating Relay" comprises a set of resistance wire single layer coils wrapped around bi-metallic strips. These wires carry the motor current which if excessive will cause heating and therefore bending of the bi-metallic strip. The bending action on any or all of the strips opens a contact which will cause the main contactor to drop out (FR contact in the KM1 coil line)

lever switch on the apron. I can switch

work each time but it keeps running

at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff

operation that I don't feel comfortable running

lever in the neutral position when the start

lever position, as it's not supposed to.

the start button is pushed. Cutting power

suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch

it it would act normally for a while. And,

or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix

I'd rather not pay someone else to fix it if I can do it myself. I have done some electrical work, like wire everything in my shop, but of course I do not want to trash my lathe.

I don't think it's the "inching button" as it works normally when the lathe is working normally.

Thanks for the info on the "Heating Relay".

I worked the lathe today and sometimes it would start in neutral and sometimes not. An irregular times, sometimes a few seconds and sometime many minutes, after I cut off the machine I hear a relay resetting in the power box. After I hear that click, the lathe will start normally.

How do I tell which relay is malfunctioning, if in fact that is what is happening?

Thanks,

Fred

lever switch on the apron. I can switch

work each time but it keeps running

at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff

operation that I don't feel comfortable running

lever in the neutral position when the start

lever position, as it's not supposed to.

the start button is pushed. Cutting power

suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch

it it would act normally for a while. And,

or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix

Ok thats a bit more information. The circuit diagram shows that K1 is the Main contactor K2 the forward contactor and K3 the reverse contactor. Based on your comments it would appear that SA (Selector switch) is operated by your Fwd/Rev lever. Everything points to K2 staying in. There is an interlock between K2 and K3 so that they cannot operate together and generate magic smoke! From the photo of the panel it appears that this is only an electrical interlock not mechanical. Run the machine whilst it is in error and take a look at K2 this is most probably the contactor that is staying in. You will be able to see if it is in or out by looking at the black button left centre of the labelled face of the contactor. Probe with a meter (you will be reading 36v AC) at terminal 2 on the bottom terminal strip to terminal

Re-reading your post I now think that K2 is sticking mechanically. Before you do the above try this. Turn OFF all power to the machine. Manually press the aforementioned button on each contactor and compare their responses. If K2 drops out slower or sticks that is your problem. This is not the finest test as your press acts in a different way to the coil pull in. When replacing it you do not need the same manufacturer just physically the same size, coil voltage and current capacity. The positions of the coil connections may change maker to maker. Ensure that you mark all wires as you strip, and make notes. By the way did I tell you to TURN OFF ALL THE POWER TO THE MACHINE FIRST! (and preferably pull the main fuses and keep them by you.)

Rectify and continue to make swarf!

If you are at all concerned with your abilities GET AN ELECTRICIAN!

That is positively the 2nd worst wiring diagram I've seen ( I'm in the middle of an ancient DC motor control by Reliance.....)

I'd hazard a guess that the forward motor relay is KM2 and that is the > Fred wrote:

On Feb 4, 9:

Fred

The FR relay is probably the overload for the motor. See the FR NC contact in the KM1 coil cirucit for KM1.

=46rom the photograph it appears that the 110 connection on the transformer needs to be moved to the 220 connection in a 220 mode.

The notes refer to Figure 10 as 110 volt wiring and Figure 11 as 220 volt wiring. Do you have Figure 11?

KM1 applies the power to the motor through KM2 or KM3 depending on which is selected. This provides direction. Forward or reverse.

I see what to do to change the control circuit to 220 but not what to change to make the motor 220.

More tomorrow. Too sleepy to continue.

Bob AZ

lever switch on the apron. I can switch

switch work each time but it keeps running

at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff

operation that I don't feel comfortable running

lever in the neutral position when the start

apron lever position, as it's not supposed to.

when the start button is pushed. Cutting power

suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch

it it would act normally for a while. And,

or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix

After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6 seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out almost instantaneously with the SA switch. Probe with a meter (you will be

I have 39 volts

It's now not running in error long enough to do this.

All three relays feel the same to push the button in and let out with no power. If K2 drops out

I'll make a drawing and label everything.

I think I can do this.

It sounds like the K2 relay is not working correctly. I'll look around and see if I can get one. I expect somewhere in Charlotte will have one.

Thank you for all your help,

Fred

Yes, I do have it.

I have a diagram for switching the motor to 220. I'll uploaded it to:

Now I think I understand the switchover from 110 to 220 would involve:

1. Changing the connections at the motor as per the above diagram
2. Changing the transformer input voltage wire from the 110 to 220 terminal.
3. Run 220 service to the machine with a 220 receptacle
4. Put a 220 plug on the machine.

Thanks for helping me get this straight.

Fred

Hang on Fred In this post you said that K2 was staying in for a few seconds. Thats all we need to determine (1) if the it is in with 0 volts or (2) if it is in whilst the volts are still there. Option 1 K2 Contactor sticky Option 2 Selector switch sticky

You really need to prove this before getting a new contactor!

Btw it is not impossible to strip the contactor and check for crap. I leave this to you.

Hmm ... this looks to me as though it is a problem with contacts in the "SA" selector switch not opening quickly -- or perhaps drawing an arc which sustains for a few seconds before releasing. Is the SA switch the block of black plastic with six terminals below the KM1 relay? Is there a rod going from that through the side of the box and becoming the switch rod connected to the apron lever? It doesn't look right, because I don't see anything connected to terminal "4" on it (and I *think* nothing connected to "3" either, so I suspect that SA is somewhere in the pedestal at the end of the rod.

Anyway -- locate where the SA switch *really* is (and it should be mechanically connected to the rod from the apron), and then run the lathe until you have it hang up as described above. Then unplug the lathe, and reach down to feel the switch. I suspect that you'll find one pair of terminal screws are hot compared to the other two pair.

As for the relay itself -- try this -- with power to the system, so be careful what you touch -- ideally, press the buttons in the relays with insulating rods (plastic, dry wood, or whatever):

The motor should start, and release immediately when you release the button on KM2 or KM1. Either should pop out quickly instead of after a delay.

If the relay moves slowly, then it is the relay. If it moves quickly, it is more likely to be arcing in the SA switch -- or perhaps just gummed up contacts which don't want to move easily once warm.

And I agree -- the diagram is a pretty bad one. More detail about the SA switch would be nice.

Good Luck, DoN.