Glued and Screwed

Wuzzat the one near the Brighton Newton line right near Boston College?

If it was, you and I were both there watching them implode it.

We had a home in Newton back then, maybe five blocks from that apartment fiasco. It was on a street off Commonwealth Avenue called Waban Hill Road North.

Thanks for the mammaries,

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff Wisnia
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Yall forget we in California do it bigger and better...

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A subway system, developed and built through the 80s as a major goal of mayor Tom Bradley, stretches from North Hollywood to Union Station and connects to light rail lines that extend to the neighboring cities of Long Beach, California, Norwalk, and Pasadena, among others. Also, a commuter rail system, Metrolink, has been added that stretches from nearby Ventura and Simi Valley to San Bernardino, Orange County, and Riverside. The funding of the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority project is funded by a half cent tax increase added in the mid 1980's, which yields $400 million every month. Although the regional transit system is growing, subway expansion was halted in the 1990s over methane gas concerns, political conflict, and construction and financing problems during Red Line Subway project, which culminated in a massive sinkhole on Hollywood Boulevard. As a result, the original subway plans have been delayed for decades as light rail systems, dedicated busways, and limited-stop "Rapid" bus routes have become the preferred means of mass transit in LA's expanding series of gridlocked, congested corridors.

"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right before demode` (out of fashion).

-Buddy Jordan 2001

Reply to
Gunner

I agree with Pete. We installed a overhead track to remove and maintain safety and mainstop valves over a boiler using Hilti chemsets. Local authorities gave us a load limit of one tonne without any argument.

Tom

Reply to
Tom Miller

I heard another version of "why" concrete tiles were used on the radio yesterday. Without saying I'm 100% sure of the teller's veracity, his story was that much lighter aluminum panels were originally called for, but they switched to concrete ones because they cost a lot less and could be produced in situ.

Re those who've noted that epoxied fasteners worked just fine for them, note that in my OP I qualified my skepticism about them with concern about whether they would be installed "right". Given things like possibly having to do the work in the wintertime with below freezing temperatures in the tunnels, and the huge numbers of them which had to be installed.

Plus, I'd also have cause to wonder about the instructional language skills and experience levels of some of the installers, given that the big local news story here in Red Sox Nation a couple of weeks ago was that a huge number of undocumented workers had been employed on publicly funded construction projects in recent years.

It's five days after the accident and the finger pointing is now rampant. As I expected, they're already talking about how much more this mess is going to cost the taxpayers.

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Jeff

Reply to
Jeff Wisnia

[snip]

I live in the Boston suburbs, and have been following the story.

This morning's Boston Globe said that the concrete was OK, but that the epoxy was grossly degraded, and went on to speculate causes for the bad epoxy: bad mix, contamination with water (either leakage from the river above, or because people cleaned the fresh-drilled hole out with water not compressed air) or oil (from failing to properly clean the threaded rod before installation).

I'm betting that when the anchors are pullout tested, most will fail and will be drilled out and reinstalled.

Mitt Romney (the governor) has been trying to replace the head of the Massachussetts Turnpike Authority for years; this time, Mitt will likely succeed. But it has little to do with safety. Getting control of the Turnpike Authority's money is a far more likely motive.

Joe Gwinn

Ref:

Reply to
Joseph Gwinn

Because it's probably the same guy who did wrong whatever was done wrong over and over again. So how could they have non-destructively tested every bolt and still the problem wasn't detected?

Can you really believe that people will accept these things being reinstalled, I mean if they are mostly just cosmetic? Arguing for the "drop" ceiling is likely to get any elected official canned next election, in the least.

Reply to
Bill Bonde ('The path is clear

[snip]

Today's paper said that they are in the process of pull-testing everything. And that some plates had already pulled 3/8" away from the concrete.

Because the bad epoxy may have been better a year ago, but is now degrading rapidly. Why the epoxy is failing has not yet been published.

Yes, they will. Nor do "people" have any reason to believe that some other method (which they never heard of before) is any better. One would expect the choice of methods to be left up to civil engineers with experience in such things.

Epoxying bolts into concrete is a standard and well-proven approach. If implemented properly. All methods can be devastated by improper application.

Though I bet they will use *far* larger bolts this time. And not cut so many corners. The fundamental problem was that the Big Dig was estimated and sold at $2.5 billion, but cost more like $15 billion, a

7:1 overrun. We are now discovering one by one the many corners that were cut under intense financial and political pressure.

The Governor of Massachussets has taken direct control of the effort, bypassing the Mass Turnpike Authority, and its doomed head.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joseph Gwinn

I heard a report yesterday (Which I sure hope was spurious.) that in some instances, if the installer's masonry drill hit a piece of rebar short of full depth, they'd go ahead and use that "short hole" by just cutting the requisite amount off the end of the bolt they were about to epoxy into it.

Arrgh!

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff Wisnia

============== The boss said my quota was 22 per shift and I had better get 22 per shift or I was out the door, so I got 22 per shift.

Again proving the accuracy of the old saying "when you want it really bad, that's generally how you get it."

With the new anti-terrorist financial tracking systems in place I expect that the several billion dollars pilfered from this project (apparently more money was stolen that was spent on actual construction) can be easily tracked. However I am not holding my breath that this will *EVER* be done, as it will hit too close to home.

Unka George (George McDuffee)

There is something to be said for government by a great aristocracy which has furnished leaders to the nation in peace and war for generations; even a democrat like myself must admit this. But there is absolutely nothing to be said for government by a plutocracy, for government by men very powerful in certain lines and gifted with the "money touch," but with ideals which in their essence are merely those of so many glorified pawnbrokers.

Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), U.S. Republican (later Progressive) politician, president. Letter, 15 Nov. 1913.

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

This may be true, but if the epoxy were good, it would probably be OK anyway. Not that one wants such corners cut, but it's not why the ceiling fell for sure. I've seen pictures in the Boston Globe - undamaged anchor bolt simply pulled out of the undamaged hole in the concrete.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joseph Gwinn

I don't know anything about the geologyg of the Boston area but could they not have sed a Chunnel borer to do this faster/ cheaper? I know the original ones are still under the Staits between France and England but new ones must have been available. Even multiple smaller tunnels would make more sense to me. I'm sure that was considered but maybe no hard enough.

Reply to
daniel peterman

Reply to
David Billington

Only useful to someone drilling the same size tunnel, with the same type liner system (probably segmented precast concrete, but the sizes do matter) and through the same type rock strata - the Chunnel was through softer chalk marl and sandstone IIRC.

If you need to drill through solid granite, or you need to make a lot larger or smaller hole in the ground, that used machine is only good for parts. By the time you get done rebuilding a used machine into what you really need, fix it up so it's reliable enough to do another tunnel without constant breakdowns, and ship it to where you need it, starting from scratch is going to end up cheaper.

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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman

Yesterday our Governor gave a structural engineering lecture at a press conference, holding up one of the "new" anchor bolts he said they were going to suppplement the existing epoxied ones with. He described it as having carbide pieces at its far end which were expanded by screwing something down the center of the bolt while rotating the whole bolt so the carbid parts carved themselves an "undercut" channel at the bottom end of the hole.

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Looks like they are these HILTI ones, huh?

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Today's Boston Globe's front page headline read:

"WORKERS DOUBTED CEILING METHOD"

The finger pointing continues...

I've got to drop SWMBO off at Logan airport tomorrow noon. Methinks I'll be taking the longer "overland" route.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff Wisnia

====================== Given that the tunnels are closed I don't think that you have a choice about using the "overland" route.

If Murphy's Law is still operational [and it always is] it looks like now is the perfect time to require an evacuation of the Boston area now that the major traffic arteries are closed. Huge tropical storm with storm surge? Tidal wave?

I hope that the Mass Attorney General follows thorough and files manslaughter charges. Two more naturals are conspiracy and RICO charges.

If the governments at the federal, state and local levels are sincere in their concern for the welfare of their citizens, there will be highly publicized trials [no "Alford" pleas], jail time and forfeiture of assets by the accountable organizations, owners, management and workers. This has the potential to institute the equivalent of Sarbanes-Oxley for the heavy construction industry. (Which in my not so humble opinion is long overdue.)

If an organization or individual won't do what they should because its the right thing to do, the next best thing is an organization or individual that does the right thing because they know they will get the s**t kicked out of them if they don't.

Referencing another thread -- remember it will be these same companies building the new nuclear power plants..... Unka George (George McDuffee)

There is something to be said for government by a great aristocracy which has furnished leaders to the nation in peace and war for generations; even a democrat like myself must admit this. But there is absolutely nothing to be said for government by a plutocracy, for government by men very powerful in certain lines and gifted with the "money touch," but with ideals which in their essence are merely those of so many glorified pawnbrokers.

Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), U.S. Republican (later Progressive) politician, president. Letter, 15 Nov. 1913.

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

[snip]

Looks like it, and the article in today's Globe said that Hilti had won the job. Good choice. Notice that the anchor the Gov is holding is a far larger diameter than the rods that pulled out. I don't think he wants this to ever happen again.

Yep. But this time they were right. There was mention of a memo from the days of the installation where the engineers were arguing about the adequacy of the bolting system, so it wasn't just the workers that were worried.

And I must say that when I first saw the photos, I was surprised at how small the anchors were, given the loads. The money is in the installation labor, so I would have used far larger bolts, on instinct alone.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joseph Gwinn

I found the installation instructions for the "new" HILTI anchors the Governor was touting interesting. They certainly look like they'd be damn hard to pull out of the drilled holes without having to tear a big hunk of concrete loose too:

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I wonder if some HILTI engineer came up with that design after observing two procreating dogs who couldn't easily decouple when done.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff Wisnia

In a p*****g contest, logic, facts experience and instinct count for nothing. The guy with the biggest b***s wins, and It my way or the highway....

Unka George (George McDuffee)

There is something to be said for government by a great aristocracy which has furnished leaders to the nation in peace and war for generations; even a democrat like myself must admit this. But there is absolutely nothing to be said for government by a plutocracy, for government by men very powerful in certain lines and gifted with the "money touch," but with ideals which in their essence are merely those of so many glorified pawnbrokers.

Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), U.S. Republican (later Progressive) politician, president. Letter, 15 Nov. 1913.

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

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