Making a shaft that will run 20K rpm in one of my R/C boats, it'll b
1/4" diameter with a keyway and threads on one end to hold
gear. I've had 2 break right at the end of some threads but wil
eliminate them as a possible stress point.
My first was made of 416 stainless and didn't last long at all, th
next was 1144 "stress relieved" and did better bu
eventually broke too. I need something that can be turned and no
warp and that is tough. A toolmaker buddy suggested 414
"pre-heat treat", what's the thinking here
snip
A toolmaker buddy suggested 4140
4140 is good. I would have said 4130.
Watch your stress risers, and if the part is failing due to fatigue
from vibration, balance the shaft. 6-4 AL-V titanium might work, though
it would need to be a third larger for the same stiffness.
TG,
If the stressproof shaft (SAE 1144) broke, odds are that the pre
heat-treated SAE 4140 will fail also. The physical properties of the
two are quite similar except for their machinability.
If you can make the shaft larger in diameter. You can even use an
aluminum tube of the right dimension!
If that is not possible you will need to remove any stress risers at
the end which keeps breaking. Is a keyway really necessary? Would
loctite do? How about a collet-type connection which would eliminate
threads and keyways.
Wolfgang
Tom Gardner (nospam) wrote:
Thanks for the replys. The shaft is in the gearbox shown here
formatting link
The end that breaks can't be seen, but it has a collet system tha
attaches to the drive shaft, that's the end that breaks. I'
estimate the motor puts out about 3hp at 30K rpm, the reduction i
1.5:1 so the shaft turns 20K. The plastic gear is held with a key
I would definetly like a bigger shaft but it means bigger bearings i
the unit which would be a real PITA. Hoping a re-design and bette
material does the job
The gearbox photo doesn't come up -- just a picture of a (very nice) RC
boat.
How long is the shaft that's breaking, and how long is the drive shaft?
If they're long enough to be resonant at 333.3Hz or it's close
multiples (667, 1000) then they'll really whip around; no amount of
stress relief would help you then. For that matter the motor power
pulses will still be coming at 400Hz, so you have to worry about those
resonances, too. Solving that would involve making the shafts more
torsionally stiff, to move the resonances up.
If that's not it then the suggestion to balance everything (your shaft
_and_ the drive shaft) would be good.
Greetings Terry,
You can also use 4340 in the heat treated condition. I think that's
what your toolmaker buddy is talking about when he says pre-heat
treat. I.E. the material is heat treated before machining. The stuff
machines nicely, though it is tough because of the heat treated
condition. I would rather machine it than 4340 in the annealed
condition because of the much better finish attainable just turning
with carbide. Since the shaft broke at the threads it looks like you
have a stress riser there. What does the thread relief look like? And
how about the threads themselves? Are they smooth? Ideally, your
thread relief should be cut with a full radius tool. And the threads
need to have as large as possible the radii in the roots and on the
crests. A good finish is very important. Fine scratches can lead to
cracking. So remove them with 600 or finer wet or dry sandpaper. The
keyway could also be a problem. How is the finish in the keyway? Does
the keyway start at the end of the threads? Have you looked with a
magnifier to determine exactly where the failure started?
Cheers,
Eric
================
You may be encountering "shaft whirl" which causes the shaft to
vibrate or flex like a plucked guitar string at certain rpms.
All steels are about equally "stiff" or resistant to bending
[although some are much more to take a permanent set or bend] so
switching materials if this is the case won't help. How long is
your shaft [l/d ratio is critical parameter here]. Can you
install an intermediate bearing? It won't have to handle much
load, just enough to keep the shaft from starting to bend/twang.
Unka George
(George McDuffee)
...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white
with the name of the late deceased, and
the epitaph drear:
?A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.?
Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).
Can the shaft be made a little bigger between the bearings? You don't
want stress risers so if possible make a smooth transition to maybe 2
mm greater diameter.
Dan
Terry Keeley wrote:
That's why I was asking about the shaft that he's driving -- if _that's_
vibrating it could take out the gearbox shaft before it dies. And I
would expect a 'driveshaft' to have a longer l/d ratio than a 'gearbox
shaft'.
Thanks again guys, looks like I'll go with "heat treat-stres
proof" 4140, or "normalized" as it's described in th
Machinery's Handbook. This material has a tensile strength o
148,000 and yeild strength of 95,000 whereas the 1144 I used befor
is rated at 96,750 & 58,000 respectively
The big help should be the elimination of the threads on the end tha
keeps breaking, I'm goin to fix the collet to the shaft wit
set-screws instead. If this set-up breaks I'll have to go with
bigger shaft..
According to Terry Keeley :
With setscrews, you will have a bit more difficulty balancing
the shaft -- but I'll bet that the keyway introduced enough of an
imbalance at the speeds which you mentioned.
If you *must* have a keyway -- can you cut *two* of them at 180
degrees -- and use two keys as well -- to maintain the balance?
And another thing which *might* improve your reliability with the
threaded end of the shaft. Look into having the threads rolled, instead
of cut. This makes for a more rounded root of the thread, and the
rolling process makes for greater strength beyond that of the stress
riser problem.
Good Luck,
DoN.
If you want to gild the lily, make your new shaft from VascoMax C-300 or
C-350 (Teledyne Vasco). These materials have high yield, tensile,
toughness, ductility and impact strengths, as well as high fatigue and
compressive strengths. Could be your breaking problems will come to an
end.
It will require heat treatment, but VascoMax requires temperature no
higher than about 925 degrees F for several hours to achieve maximum
strength.. Distortion is limited or eliminated, and shrinkage is
predictable.
Harold
On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 04:40:26 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@spam.invalid (Terry Keeley
You can also use 4340 in the heat treated condition. I think that'
what your toolmaker buddy is talking about when he says pre-hea
treat. I.E. the material is heat treated before machining. The stuf
machines nicely, though it is tough because of the heat treate
condition. I would rather machine it than 4340 in the anneale
condition because of the much better finish attainable just turnin
with carbide. Since the shaft broke at the threads it looks like yo
have a stress riser there. What does the thread relief look like? An
how about the threads themselves? Are they smooth? Ideally, you
thread relief should be cut with a full radius tool. And the thread
need to have as large as possible the radii in the roots and on th
crests. A good finish is very important. Fine scratches can lead t
cracking. So remove them with 600 or finer wet or dry sandpaper. Th
keyway could also be a problem. How is the finish in the keyway? Doe
the keyway start at the end of the threads? Have you looked with
magnifier to determine exactly where the failure started
Cheers
Eric[/quote:a51be0eec1
Sorry, I wasn't seeing all the posts looking through the DIY forum.
Yes, i tryed to make the threads as smooth as possible and ground
small radius in my threading tool so the bottoms weren't sharp.
The keyway end isn't a problem..
Think eliminating the threads completely will help a bunch
On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 04:40:26 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@spam.invalid (Terry Keeley
You can also use 4340 in the heat treated condition. I think that'
what your toolmaker buddy is talking about when he says pre-hea
treat. I.E. the material is heat treated before machining. The stuf
machines nicely, though it is tough because of the heat treate
condition. I would rather machine it than 4340 in the anneale
condition because of the much better finish attainable just turnin
with carbide. Since the shaft broke at the threads it looks like yo
have a stress riser there. What does the thread relief look like? An
how about the threads themselves? Are they smooth? Ideally, you
thread relief should be cut with a full radius tool. And the thread
need to have as large as possible the radii in the roots and on th
crests. A good finish is very important. Fine scratches can lead t
cracking. So remove them with 600 or finer wet or dry sandpaper. Th
keyway could also be a problem. How is the finish in the keyway? Doe
the keyway start at the end of the threads? Have you looked with
magnifier to determine exactly where the failure started
Cheers
Eric[/quote:7aae61f5b4
Sorry, I wasn't seeing all the posts looking through the DIY forum.
Yes, i tryed to make the threads as smooth as possible and ground
small radius in my threading tool so the bottoms weren't sharp.
The keyway end isn't a problem..
Think eliminating the threads completely will help a bunch
You can also use 4340 in the heat treated condition. I think that's
what your toolmaker buddy is talking about when he says pre-heat
treat. I.E. the material is heat treated before machining. The stuff
machines nicely, though it is tough because of the heat treated
condition. I would rather machine it than 4340 in the annealed
condition because of the much better finish attainable just turning
with carbide. Since the shaft broke at the threads it looks like you
have a stress riser there. What does the thread relief look like? And
how about the threads themselves? Are they smooth? Ideally, your
thread relief should be cut with a full radius tool. And the threads
need to have as large as possible the radii in the roots and on the
crests. A good finish is very important. Fine scratches can lead to
cracking. So remove them with 600 or finer wet or dry sandpaper. The
keyway could also be a problem. How is the finish in the keyway? Does
the keyway start at the end of the threads? Have you looked with a
magnifier to determine exactly where the failure started?
Cheers,
Eric[/quote:bd1f56389a]
Sorry, I wasn't seeing all the posts looking through the DIY forum.
Yes, i tryed to make the threads as smooth as possible and ground a
small radius in my threading tool so the bottoms weren't sharp.
The keyway end isn't a problem...
Think eliminating the threads completely will help a bunch!
On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 04:40:26 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@spam.invalid (Terry Keeley
You can also use 4340 in the heat treated condition. I think that'
what your toolmaker buddy is talking about when he says pre-hea
treat. I.E. the material is heat treated before machining. The stuf
machines nicely, though it is tough because of the heat treate
condition. I would rather machine it than 4340 in the anneale
condition because of the much better finish attainable just turnin
with carbide. Since the shaft broke at the threads it looks like yo
have a stress riser there. What does the thread relief look like? An
how about the threads themselves? Are they smooth? Ideally, you
thread relief should be cut with a full radius tool. And the thread
need to have as large as possible the radii in the roots and on th
crests. A good finish is very important. Fine scratches can lead t
cracking. So remove them with 600 or finer wet or dry sandpaper. Th
keyway could also be a problem. How is the finish in the keyway? Doe
the keyway start at the end of the threads? Have you looked with
magnifier to determine exactly where the failure started
Cheers
Eric[/quote:1750266bf0
Sorry, I wasn't seeing all the posts looking through the DIY forum.
Yes, i tryed to make the threads as smooth as possible and ground
small radius in my threading tool so the bottoms weren't sharp.
The keyway end isn't a problem..
Think eliminating the threads completely will help a bunch
Can the shaft be made a little bigger between the bearings? Yo
don'
Unfortunately it can't the shaft has to slide through the two bearing
so it has to be 1/4" for a 3" length
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