I'm going to watch for one of these torches, statements like that make me want one.. I've got to ask though, can you get a weld on the material in question with this torch quick enough to not anneal the material a distance down its length equal to its diameter? That's the point where I figure the annealing is going to become a serious issue and that's why I wouldn't have suggested a torch.
John
Flux-coated rods, or bare rods with flux from a can. Experiment with different brazing materials, including "silversolder", to see which you like best. Silversolder is pricey by the ounce, but a little of it goes a long way and it can be very strong. It also works well with stainless. It runs at barely-red temperature, so distortion becomes a non-issue.
Flux removal will be an issue, is easily accomplished with boiling water. Don't be stingy with flux. If you don't use enough it can load up with oxides and be difficult to remove. Excess flux that isn't loaded is quite easy to remove. Much or most of it will pop off if the joint is quenched with a squirt of water after brazing.
I would say no unless the adjacent regions were heatsunk or otherwise chilled.
TIG might be better choice there, though I'd think even TIG would have a HAZ of a diameter or more without heatsinking. But annealing isn't an issue with mild steel. I've had no problem with stuff made out of 1/8" rod or even silverbrazing HSS twist drills on the ends of 18" mild steel extension rods for running wiring thru walls and floors -- including intervening studs and joists if that's what's on the other side.
If heat control of adjacent regions were an issue, I'd use TIG and "Heat-Stop" paste near the joint.
Not to disparage TIG at all, but I don't think TIG will be "way less" than O/A. The $199 job from HF does not include an argon tank or regulator, so add those plus an auto-darkening helmet to the cost. O/A: about $130 for a Little Torch set with hoses and 5 tips, two tanks, two regulators, and about $15 for goggles with a shade 4 lens.
Recurring gas cost with TIG will be higher than with O/A because argon gas flow rate is higher (20 cu ft/hr) than O/A to a torch and argon is more expensive than either oxy or actylene.
TIG can make very nice welds quickly, but it doesn't offer the additional option of brazing. If I were building an RB, I'd go with stainless rod silverbrazed with Handy & Harman Easy-Flo 45.
OK Don, I won't argue with your corrections to my numbers. I went with the Little Torch approach as well, and while I spent significantly more for the two tanks and regulators, upon review, I retract my earlier cost comparison. But when I googled for the 23-1004A (the acetylene setup) I found a cost of $495...
I also used the Handy & Harmon silver solder, but I would have to go dig it up to be certain of which exact grade.
This is the pointer to the double-headed torch tip:
Having written these messages, I think I am going to sell my Dillon/Henrob and Little Torches after I do some ebay research to figure out what they are worth.
I'll post the eBay numbers once I get around to listing them...
Thanx!
I agree wholehartedly - 1/8" rounds braze very easily - I wouldn't recommend a propane plumbers torch, but a good air/acetelene plumbers torch would do the job - or oxy acetelene (my choice). Buy flux coated brazing rods and keap them clean and dry - a bit of borax for stubborn joints - and CLEAN THE METAL BEFORE BRAZING. Scotchbrite works very well.
The only buggaboo with brazing is if you don't have enough heat, the heat will travel back the metal and may remelt joints in the same general area - so you want a hot enough torch (which is why I rule out a standard propane torch)
Ed - if you can stick weld 1/8" wire you are a better man than I am. Even wire-feed Mig would be a real PITA.
Personally, I'd choose brazing myself for this project, not just because I think it would be easier than welding, but also because I think the bronze color of the copper-based filler metals will add to the beauty of your work. After all, you are making an ornamental sculpture.
Here's a good source of brazing info:
Yeah, maybe I felt more concerned about annealing than the situation would warrant. I'm going to watch for one of them torches though..
John
Agreed. Seems to me the extra heat will be needed to cover a thousand joints!
I don't have much trouble with this, but then, I cake on the borax liberally. Cleanliness never hurts though.
I've never had this problem. With a cold air/propane torch, you have enough trouble getting the joint you're working on up to temp, let alone a neighboring one!
The only trouble I've had with my (fat, 3/4" pipe burner ;) propane torch is, aside from being slow, the relatively wide and slow heat gets the
*whole* joint hot, *and* then some. Real troublesome if gravity is working against you... brass dribbles anyone?Overheating is *never* a problem, being that it's slow and I only heat it enough that the brass flows. I would suppose a good hot O/A torch could be a little ornery in this regard, but I haven't used one yet so I can't say. I'm sure it's nothing experience can't fix...
Tim
-- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website:
Hmm, must be he used 1/16" rods.
Ya got me too, I find 3/32" rods way hotter than 1/8"...(yeah, probably running them too hot, or not used to the burn rate...they stick things together good though!)
Tim
-- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website:
You may call it welding, or you may call it sticking things together. When I once had a very cheap buzz box, the only thing I had handy to stick together the first couple of days was a bundle of wire that had been run through a straightener and chopped off into 18" lengths. You just tap the intersection with the electrode, making sure you first hit the piece that's directly grounded, and then pull back. It's all timing, not technique.
It's ugly, but it sticks.
However, seeing that the OP is interested in something more appropriate and maybe doesn't mind spending a few bucks, he'll be better off avoiding it.
-- Ed Huntress
Gunner, you're right again. If we believed all the crap that the OH&S merchants would have us believe, we wouldn't get out of bed! Just use a bit of common sense. Some of the things they warn us as being deadly,are in fact deadly, but you are in greater danger of being struck down by an enraged water buffalo falling out of your cumquat tree. Here in Aus, the ocean is full of sharks, but we average only about one person per year being taken. That doesn't keep people out of the water as the risks are about 1 in 20 million per year. I even cross the Nepean Highway sometimes and that is a LOT more risky..
Tom
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling
nothing for which he is willing to fight,
miserable creature and has no chance of being
Thanks for the brazing tips....I'll probably doing a lot of it!
Hi, Emmo!
I'm in Georgia, but appreciate the offer.
Done much brazing? Thought not. Low heat causes the whole shebang to heat up to the same temperature - very slowly, and the last 5 or 6 joints you just finished remelt and fall apart.. Using a good hot torch makes your new joint before the heat gets to the old one.
I think they have to awfully close together to make that happen when bronze-brazing. That happens in soft soldering, but, if you're brazing steel wire, I think you'd have to be overheating the joint outrageously to make that happen unless they're right next to each other.
I've had no problem brazing up charcoal grills with a big propane torch or a MAPP torch.
-- Ed Huntress
I was looking at the web site
Easy-Flo 45 liquid at 1145 F 24% Cd Joining ferrous, nonferrous and dissimilar metals and alloys with close joint clearances.
Easy-Flo 35 liquid at 1295 F 18% Cd Similar to Easy-Flo 45, but used where joint clearances are large and fillets are desired.
The Easy-Flo filler has cadmium, which I'd like to advoid. (lol, I'm a picky eater, too.)
The following "Silver-Based Cadmium-Free Filler" , Braze 452, looks interesting:
Braze 452 liquid at 1260 F 45% silver (same as Easy-Flo 45) Low temperature, free-flowing, Cd-free alloy.
So it looks like either the Easy-Flo 45 or Braze 452 .
Thanks for all the help!... I'll buy a torch, tanks, rods, filler, a helment, gloves, ......a big vice...... and then get some experience......It'll be weeks while I scrounge for some time.
Brazing is a lot easier and faster with O/A or oxypropane than with propane-air torchzilla. Brazing a joint less than 1" distant from a previously-brazed joint in 1/8" rod is no problem at all and it only takes a few seconds to do.
An exception to this might be larger work, as perhaps brazing cannon alls -- that example borrowed from Ron Reil.
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