I thought that when I got the forney with the higher current capabilities, that I would be able to start using larger welding rod sizes and get away from that expensive 1/16 rod. But it seems with the stuff I am welding, I can't really find a use for, and hence, don't really use that much of the
3/16 and large rods even when I can use them. I do a lot of welding on small and thin stuff.
In fact, with how easy I have found welding with the forney is, and with the addition of the Eastwood panel welder that I picked up used a few days ago, I am going through 1/16 rod like a chain smoker. I have went through more
1/16 rod in the last month than I went through all last year.
And it's an expensive addiction. Most local places want $5 a half pound. That is the same as $500 a fifty pound tin. But luckily lowes sells it for about $7 for a pound. That is only about $350 for an equivalent fifty pound tin.
And when I pick up that 1 pound tube, I look down on the shelf below and see
3/16, 1/8 and 5/16 rod going for $7 to $10 for a five pound box. (screams!!!!!!!)
No place I have found, sells in in larger than 1 pound tubes/tins.
I know it's because most people don't use much of it. Maybe, if I keep using this much of it, I can single handedly pull down the price of 1/16 rod to $3 or so a pound in north America!
I have found a couple places online that are selling it in 10 pound tins. Maybe if I can find someone selling it in a 50 pound tin for a couple hundred, I could buy one, and it would keep me for about a year at my present consumption. Or buy a half a dozen 10 pound tins online and open them up as I use them.
It seems my needs are always different than everyone else. If that is a good thing or not, is yet to be determined.
I suspect the problem is that most people don't tend to stick weld the thin stuff. They will use Mig or Tig instead.
I bought a pack of 1/16" 6013 to play with and tried welding some 18 gauge steel with it. It was damn hard to get a good weld because I had to move so fast to keep from burning through. The path had to be straight and perfect because it was real easy to wonder off the seam and not know it. Welding some 1/8" plate worked ok, but I would pick MIG or TIG over stick with those little rods any day for something that size. I'd use stick if that's all I had but I would definitely buy a small mig machine if I needed to do a lot of work on metal smaller than 1/8".
Back when I had a welding business, we did lots of repairs on .065" tubing. Fences, rails, gates, etc. In the shop, we would MIG it all. But out in the field, I found 6011 with the stinger negative to work very well. I used
3/32" rod, but the 1/16" would have worked, too. If you get your heat right and have a good welding machine and weldor, it is amazing what you can do with rods on thin stuff.
Lets see....... Things that I have welded recently.
The governor control rod on a HD6 track loader. The end had broken off. I had to weld a bolt on the end with the proper threads to fit the yoke that connects to the governor. Rod size was about 3/8 inch. Even with 1/16 rod, the weld area was glowing orange after each pass. Weld looked good, but the small parts couldn't take any more heat input.
The deck adjust lever on a Murray lawn mower. The metal had fatigued and it broke right where the latching pin came out on the lower side. it was a 12 to 14 gauge metal tube.
The mower deck on the same mower. I could have used 3/32 but it seams like I always get the weld area a little hot with 3/32 so I make one pass on the top, and one pass on the bottom with 1/16, and I avoid the unsightly stalactites hanging on the other side of the weld. My uncle uses the riding mower as a bush hog, so it always needs constant repair. Things like cracks around the spindles, broken frames and stuff. He normally bothers one of are neighbor (cow farmer) for welding broken parts, but he now bugs me.
Automotive control rod. Another neighbor had a broken control rod (stamped sheet metal) on the rear wheel of his car. Got that put together. Gravel roads are hard on vehicles around here.
Welding car panels together. The eastwood panel welder really shines in that realm. It is harder to hold an arc with it, but it is really easy to control the current on it. And it makes a nice small weld pool that doesn't melt through everything. About as close to factory auto body welds that I have ever gotten. And it is a strictly 1/16 rod machine. It says up to 3/32 rod, but it's really sucky at with that large of rod.
And I have found that in situations where I would normally pull out the drill, and sheet metal screws, I just pull out the welder and stick it together. It's making me spoiled.
Up coming projects
The person that I did the work on the HD6 loader for, has a beat up trailer that he wants to use for moving a lawn mower. The heavy gauge welds on the frame are fine but when they welded the sheet metal on the frame for the deck, they used the same large rod that they used for the frame. it just melted holes in the sheet metal where ever they tried to weld it to the frame. I need to pull up the decking and redo it. And I need to straighten out the side rail and do a little more bracing on the frame. I can use 1/8 on the frame work, and 3/32 on the light side rail. But the sheet metal decking will probably suck up about a pound or so of 1/16 rod if I do it right. (Not just tack it on the corners and leave the middle flapping up and down in the wind.)
And there is one mower running around in the neighborhood that has a broken deck support. Its running around with bailing wire holding it up right now. If I can get them to get it over here, I'll see if I can fix it. I may use
3/32 with it if it is thick enough metal.
I don't do much work with commercial stuff. All the residential grade equipment that runs around the neighborhood is made of thin metal. (My own equipment, and the neighbor's equipment.)
I don't do welding for money, I just do it as a requirement to keep things together. With how old the equipment is that we are using, You have to fix the parts you got, because you can't buy new ones.It isn't something I want to spend a lot of money on, that is why I was ranting about the price of
1/16 rod.
Maybe I need to start looking for a MIG. But unless I can find one for under a couple hundred, then it probably isn't going to happen any time soon.
At this point, if I really need a MIG, I can use cow farmer's MIG any time I want (the only MIG around i know of), but I haven't been in that position yet. So the urge hasn't been that strong to buy one. Now if I start making a regular pilgrimage to his equipment shed to use the MIG then my opinion may change.
But as of this time, I seem to be holding the fort with 6013 1/16 rod and my old AC welders.
I was interested in the 1/16" (and smaller) rod a few months ago, until I saw the price - YIKES!
I'm sticking (pun intended) with the 3/32" for now, but I'd like to add on a DC convertor for more flexibility, including welding thinner stuff without blowing so many holes.
6013 (and 6012) is often described as a 'fast follow' type of rod which means that the puddle will follow a fast moving arc (without skip or intermitent welding) and this is why it is often used to weld thin sheet material. It is also a shallow penetrating rod which also helps to control burn through. Straight polarity is generally prefered which also tends to concentrate the arc heat to the rod and minimizes the heat input into the work which also further limits penetration. Thin material is often easier to weld downhill as this tends to leave your heat behind the arc and limits excess heat buildup under the arc.
This is very common with small rods as there is not enough light to see the work. I use a gold welding lens which helps to light the work by reflecting the arc light back to where you are looking. A lower shade number will also help and is easy to select on some auto-darkening helmets. A bright work light will also help. It can also be helpful to put chalk guide lines on each side of the joint to be welded.
IMHO 1/16 is a little small for 1/8 plate but depends on joint preparation and root spacing, I would be more inclined to use 5/64 or 3/32. Like your lawyer says, 'it depends', there is no real right or wrong and you must use whatever works best for the particular situaltion.
I agree, but you often need to make do with what you have, and in the field with wind and rain or in an awkward location, it is often easier to weld with stick. I keep a few small sized rods on my rig just for those surprise jobs but I hardly ever need them.
IMHO this is a job that is better suited to 3/32 - 7018. I would use a full bevel joint prep and back grind the root to solid weld metal and to ensure full penetetion. (I hope you do have a 4.5" mini angle grinder?) I would suggest clamping both the parts to a heavy metal heat sink to help conduct excess heat away from the small work area and allow the job to cool between passes.
Fatigue makes for a very problematic repair but YMMV.
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This sounds like a repair that may or should be beyond the skill set of the average hobbyist and should be done with the guidance of a pro. FAILURE COULD CAUSE DEATH OR SERIOUS INJURY, and is likely to create liability issues. Most jurisdictions have severe restrictions on welding suspension, steering or brake components for use on roads.
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I suspect that you need to find an industrial welding supply house as IMHE small rods are no where near as expensive as you are finding. IIRC 7018 is ~$1.25(sale)-2.50 and small 6013 should be $3-4 /lb. YMMV
From the sounds of your needs you would be a good candidate for one of the small 110V MIG welders. Good quality units from Lincoln and Millar are often available very reasonably on sale or used, I would suggest purchasing one with the proper valving to allow using gas and flux core shielding. Considering how much expensive rod you are burning, you may be able to pay for a small MIG very quickly, there is no substitute for good tools and poor welders will just limit your learning and enjoyment.
It is always nice to be able to learn to use any tools before you buy as you will then have a better idea of what you want.
I suggest you also try 5/64 and 3/32 (and 1/8) - 6013, and 3/32 - 7018.
7014 (often called farmer rod) also works well on limited input low capacity AC transformer welders, which often lack the power to burn 1/8 - 7018 but will be happy with 1/8 (or maybe even 5/32)-7014. Use the scratching technique to start the arc (particularly with 7018) as it will be much more forgiving of inexperience and is less likely to stick. Keep all your rods dry (but not over dry) and the 7018 VERY dry. You may be able to use your power source for light TIG but YMMV.
Always remember that like painting, good welding is 90% preparation.
"Steve B" wrote in message news:TF80i.281529$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe17.phx...
I may not have expressed myself well as I suspect that you have done this job many times.
There are two ways that this job is commonly done.
Farmers would just cut off the head of the bolt and lap weld it to the side of the control rod with no joint prep. 3/8 rod to 3/8 rod, 3/32 - 7018, weld both sides, easy job.
Real welders will want something a little more elegant.
It is often necessary to have a drill bit that is longer than we have or to extend a bolt or some other job where it is important to maintain the profile of the rod for clearance or for esthetic reasons. I have often extended wood auger bits to use to drill holes for dowel pins or electrical lines many feet long through retaining walls or in timber frame or log construction.
I generally bevel the ends of both pieces to a centered chisel with a landing ~3/32". I like to use a long piece of angle iron to both maintain alignment and to act as a heat sink to keep from overheating the rods. It is a lot easier if both rods are the same size but a smaller rod can be centered with shims if necessary. I clamp the rods with vice grip welders clamps or what ever is handy. I like a gap of ~1/16" or less depending on the size of the rods. I like to use 7018 whenever possible due to its superior strength and ductility and crack resistance. I often tack a piece of scrap to the angle beside the joint to provide a place to start the arc and to weld about 1" in order to get the rod hot, then I just jump the arc to the joint and weld one side, the weld is seldom pretty but I try to keep the bead pure and clean and free of slag inclusion. Don't weld to the angle! If the material is hard or will have high loads then I will dry and preheat slightly with a torch. After allowing the work to cool I remove the clamps, then use a mini angle grinder with a thin wheel to clean up the root of the weld back to clean weld metal. I then reclamp the rod in the angle and repeat the process on the other side. Check for straightness bending as required when still hot, then allow to cool. Depending on the size of the rod cleanup and build up to finish size, grind to size and recheck for straight. I like to cool slowly and do not quench. Never had one break yet and I have a very big powerful drill..
One time I broke a drive axle on my rig (on the jobsite a LONG way from home) and just welded it up using the above procedure, finished the job (with no loss of billable hours), and drove for some weeks till I could find a good replacement. The hardest part of the job was fishing out the broken stub and shimming it up straight as it was a tapered axle.
You have to make do in the tough spots and get the job done. A tow truck and downtime and loss of the job would have cost big bucks and would have disappointed my customer. I would have lost that work and maybe the next. In this case I did the repair work in time where I was waiting for my customer to be ready for me and I even billed for my time. IIRC I gave the repaired axle to a friend who had broken his and IIRC he used it for a looong time and may have sold the truck with the repaired axle still installed.
As always YMMV and luck helps, this is the type of repair that is not guaranteed.
There is a lot of people around here that put a lot of welded aftermarket suspension parts in that would really be bummed out by that news. The hotroders putting in independent front suspensions in their mustangs and the off road crowd that jack up their pickups until you need a step ladder to get in.
And the kit car people would be crushed. A lot of the kit cars, you have to weld the car frame together from scratch.
I am pretty sure most of the people doing the welding are not certified welders.
Do you get TV where you live? Have you seen pictures of the boys in the 'hood" and the "barrio" with their "hopper" cars? Jacked up with all kinds of hydraulic systems on them? I'd say there's just a little bit more than a lot of welding and cutting on those cartoon cars. And that's in Kalifornicus, a state that has more laws than they have cockroaches.
Yeah, I had done it with DCEP at first, but later tried DCEN since straight is said to work better. Didn't seem to make much difference. I could never get a butt joint to work with 18 gauge. It would either burn though or not get enough penetration. I got a lot of cold lapping. It was just damn hard to get enough heat into the base metal without burning a hole. I could do a lap joint, but only got one that was really acceptable out of maybe 10 tries. I'm sure someone with more experience could do it and I'm sure I could do it if I keep practicing. But it's just so trivial to do something with the thin 18 gauge (which is around .048" BTW) with Mig or Tig.
It was also very tricky starting the arc and keeping it going at the lower amperage numbers needed to make this work (and tricky to know what the machine I was using was actually delivering).
I've never tried 1/16" or 16 gauge which is around .062. I might actually be able to do that with the 1/16" rod.
I've got an auto darkening helmet that goes down to around 5 shade so that wasn't really the issue for me. I guess the problem was more of not being able to tell where the rod was laying the bead. For such a small rod it tends to produce a lot of flux and as I recall, I had to move so fast to keep it from burning through (maybe 1 inch per second?) that I could waver
1/16" in the pass and never know it but after chipping off the flux I found that 1/16" waver caused the bead to wonder off the joint and then back on. It was just real tricky stuff to make work for me.
I think I tried one T joint which is easy to see where you are going but had a hell of a time getting heat to both plates and it tended to burn holes in one side and cold lap the other.
It's something I'd like to try some more just for the challenge of trying to make it work but if I had a project to do on 18 gauge I would use something other than stick.
Yeah, I was actually using 3/32 on that but I know I could make the 1/16" work - though it might require welding both sides.
Yeah, I can understand how stick is probably a lot easier in the field for many applications. I suspect 1/16" material is a lot easier than the 18 gauge I was playing with even though the thickness is only slightly less. I've got some 16 gauge here at home. I should take some to the welding lab and try it tomorrow (my last class for the stick class is tomorrow).
I tell you, knowing how to do basic welding has just opened up a whole new world of possibilities to me. There's just so much you can fix or make out of metal that I never thought about in the past because I had no clue how to weld. I really should have picked this up 30 years ago.....
Another technique that may help is to use a body dolly or other heavy steel to hold behind the work under the arc. This will act as a heat sink and can help to promote quick puddle freeze and prevent burn-through. (Don't weld the dolly!) I have read of using a block of carbon or copper in the same way but I have never used them. There is also a body work technique of placing a dolly behind the welding then using a hammer to work the panel and control shrinkage but I am not a body guy and do not know the fine points of this.
There is an old joke about a tourist asking a cab driver how to get to Carnegie Hall. The answer was practice, practice, practice.
Good luck and keep it fun. IMHO, learning new skills is great relaxation and intellectually stimulating.
Play with your rod angle and arc length. IMHO, Fast follow works best with minimal whipping but can be done as an intermitent puddle with a long but quick whip in between..
MIG has made welding thin steel much easier but they are not foolproof especially for thicker steel with higher loading.
You must train your eyes for what to look for and give them as much help as you can with the use of glasses, lighting and aids for prspective. The edge prep for a butt weld on thicker material is much lager and more visible due to its contrast with the weathered surface of the plate. The hardest visibility is new unweathered plate with little edge prep visible and in a school welding booth with poor lighting and especially with old eyes.
Rod angle and arc length and direction.
Another technique that may help is to use a body dolly or other heavy steel to hold behind the work under the arc. This will act as a heat sink and can help to promote quick puddle freeze and prevent burn-through. (Don't weld the dolly!) I have read of using a block of carbon or copper in the same way but I have never used them. There is also a body work technique of placing a dolly behind the welding then using a hammer to work the panel and control shrinkage but I am not a body guy and do not know the fine points of this.
There is an old joke about a tourist asking a cab driver how to get to Carnegie Hall. The answer was practice, practice, practice.
Good luck and keep it fun. IMHO, learning new skills is great relaxation and intellectually stimulating.
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