OT - Greek 737 plane crash

Isn't that the system boats used for navigation? I seem to recall seeing the product in boating magazines years ago.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos
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I recall from an old Kurt Saxon book, nicotine sulfate is readily absorbed through the skin and quite fatal. I believe Black Leaf 40 was the insecticide that used it. Hard to believe some of the nasty stuff one used to be able to buy...

Jon

Reply to
Jon Anderson

Yep. According to the _Merk Index_, the "40" of "Black Leaf 40" is the percentage of nicotine sulfate in the insecticide. And yes, they do agree that it is readily absorbed through the skin.

Nasty stuff.

Enjoy, DoN.

Reply to
DoN. Nichols

IIRC, Boeings have lost tails, but they kept on flying.

Reply to
Nick Hull

IIRC, a B-52 lost most of it's tail and made it home. It was still stable enough to fly because the big slab sides of the fuselage contributed significant "weathercock" effect.

I'd be interested to know whether a 7 series Boeing has ever lost a tail and made it home.

Reply to
Jim Stewart

Reply to
carl mciver

See

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Loran WAS originally set up for marine navigation, and aviators were able to buy aircraft receivers once more stations were set up to make it useable in areas far from any coast. There were handheld units sold to boaters but which were also used by pilots. The accuracy isn't all that great, but will get you close enough to find the airport. The Loran system is still functioning. They had originally decided to shut it down since GPS was so much more accurate, but it appears that it's still alive as a backup. It's a low-frequency system, around 100 kHz, and such low freqs are nap-of-the-earth waves that travel thousands of miles while losing little strength. The receiver triangulates its position based on signal times. No altitude info. Ships didn't need it :-) Omega, on the other hand, might not be in use anymore. It ran in a similar manner, but on VLF frequencies of 9 to 14 kHz. Only eight stations covered the entire earth.

Dan

Reply to
Dan_Thomas_nospam

I think it could be, but shouldn't be. Most planes, ships, and people use GPS. There are risky times however when the Sats get blasted by a SUN plume or burst. If many are lost - regions would be gone. I suppose picket ships could be sent out - but there are many places around the world.

I know some people what might know - a LORAN station was a couple of miles from where I lived for a while - mid pacific. United States Coast Guard manned that and the other sites. Wonder if they still live there.

Hum - the site that they built the birds in the sky was several miles from my old house.

Small world in many ways.

Martin

Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn

Yep. I was at the 'mid Pacific' refueling port (among other things) - and the LORAN station was just up island. The fleet would come by to visit them and visit us every six months. During the Cold War, one day a couple of mine sweepers came by on tour. When they went up island (within our atoll) they detected a Soviet sub inside the lagoon! - Naturally chase was given - and nets were dropped.

Long story - a torpedo and the nets parted. Washington never answered the phone call. Viet Nam was on the thoughts, not a couple of mine sweepers.

Martin

Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn

Reply to
gfulton

Thanks! From all indications, it's enjoying a new life.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

Ah, I spoke too soon. There are different versions of LORAN and some of them have been phased out - others are being upgraded though:

I don't think aircraft use is included in the plan though.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

What exactly do we mean by "tail" Rudder- elevator- horizontal stab- vertical stab? To me losing tail means all of above- the plane is doomed. Losing either stabilizer, pretty much the same. Loss of rudder can possibly be saved. Have some doubt if elevator is lost, but maybe not impossible if long enough runway available. But loss of elevator would probably mean severe pitch down, more than can be compensated by stabilizer trim.

Reply to
Don Stauffer

Just read a fantastic new book, called "Tuxedo Park," by Jannett Conant, that discusses invention and development of Loran. Really good read!

Reply to
Don Stauffer

It's obvious that you are quite unfamiliar with the history of Boeing's Model 299 - designated by the military as the B-17.

These birds flew back to their bases with missing vertical stabilizers, missing horizontal stabilizers, and one made it back to its North African base after a mid-air collision with a German fighter that put its wing through the rear of the fuselage! [That one broke in half AFTER landing.]

Boeing build tough birds.

Reply to
RAM^3

Maybe 20 years ago a 747 over Japan lost its entire vertical fin and rudder when the aft pressure bulkhead blew out. The airplane zigzagged for some time as the crew tried to control it using thrust differential, but it finally crashed. There was too little directional stability, I think, and they just couldn't make a go of it. The pressure bulkhead had been damaged some time earlier when the tail struck the runway during over-rotation on takeoff. No inspector found the damage and a lot of folks paid the price.

Dan

Reply to
Dan_Thomas_nospam

Reply to
carl mciver

In that jackscrew case, the stabilizer was too far off for level flight. Could the pilot have flipped the plane upside down intermittently to compensate? Would be rough but a nose first crash is worse.

Reply to
Nick Hull

wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... | Maybe 20 years ago a 747 over Japan lost its entire vertical fin | and rudder when the aft pressure bulkhead blew out. The airplane | zigzagged for some time as the crew tried to control it using thrust | differential, but it finally crashed. There was too little directional | stability, I think, and they just couldn't make a go of it. | The pressure bulkhead had been damaged some time earlier when | the tail struck the runway during over-rotation on takeoff. No | inspector found the damage and a lot of folks paid the price. | | Dan

There are still arrest warrants in Japan out for one inspector and a couple mechanics from that repair job. It had been recently repaired by a Boeing AOG (Aircraft On Ground) who had gotten complacent and started pencil whipping things and not taking it seriously. AOG is constantly in a hurry, doing some rather phenomenal repairs and some rather routine stuff, so shit happened. Nowadays when repair paperwork has been presented to the customer for their information and records (new planes, being incredibly complex and built by humans, inevitably have some repairs before complete) now have the mechanics' and inspector's names either obliterated or replaced with X's, as a result of that incident. The pressure dome, as it's called, is a very thin sheet metal, fragile and highly stressed part of the airplane, and rightfully so treated very carefully. Boeing now treats damage to the domes with the utmost respect and caution. It's almost annoying, but that's the way things have become. For what would be minor damage elsewhere (small die dent, scratch) they will yank the entire back end off the plane, regardless of the completeness of the plane, and replace it. Kinda weird seeing a fully assembled plane out in the bay with aft galleys pulled forward, wires hanging everywhere, and the tail, complete with APU and stabs, sitting on huge styrofoam blocks on the floor. What really happened in Japan was that the dome blew out and took out four hydraulic pressure lines going to the tail. That was all four hydraulic systems, and since there was no way to stop the flow of fluid from the entire system, all four "bled out." There are now shut off valves immediately behind the dome on all Boeing products just for that possibility. If the hydraulics hadn't bled out, thrust control would have been enough to get them on the ground in reasonable shape with the wing surfaces functioning, but in Japan there's a few mountains here and there, so without _any_ hydraulic systems to control all the flight control systems, engines were pretty much all there was for controls, although I think they did try using the main gear to slow the plane down, but obviously they couldn't retract them, and when approaching a mountain, speed is necessary to make some altitude. Here's a decent story about it:

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I also came across this today:
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Kinda interesting. This a bit of Boeing fluff about AOG and they stuff they've done.
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The New Delhi story blows my mind, and I've seen the videotapes about it. You thought you've had a mother of a repair job? That one took the cake! That was back in the late 80's when the demand for 747's was so high that a used

747 cost more than a new one and the airline (I think Air France) was willing to pay more than new cost to get that plane back in the air. I was interested in getting on with AOG, but most of those guys are working overtime when "home" just to keep all the ex-wives paid off, and I'd just as soon not do that!
Reply to
carl mciver

You can lose elevator control and fly with the stabilizer. If an Airbus, (A319/320/321/330 are the ones I'm sure about), loses all electrics and computers, engines and engine driven hyd. pumps, and aux. power unit, it's down to flying with the horiz. stabilizer and the rudder. The rudder does have cable control and hyd. for the stab. is provided by the RAT. (Ram air turbine driven hyd. pump and generator that drops out of the belly of the fuselage.) An Airbus maint. instructor set me up that way in the A330 simulator in Miami, and it gave me a little more respect for pilots. I finally got it straight and level, but he said that everybody in the back would have puked by now. And to clarify the Japanese 747 that lost the vert. stab., it was caused by a bad repair on the aft pressure bulkhead as someone here already mentioned. The air had to go somewhere and it blew out the structure under the vert. stab. That stabilizer sure as hell didn't come off because the pilot kicked the rudder pedals too hard as in the case of the Eurotrash. A runaway horiz. stabilizer has caused a crash every time I can remember. As in the case of the MD-80 off the California coast a while back. They always burn off the wing tanks first, which causes the CG to shift forward, (nose down), and the stabilizer_has_to compensate for that.

Garrett Fulton

Reply to
gfulton

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