OT: Sump Pump Adventures - Pt 1

For the first time in my life I'm living in a home with a sump pump.

It has no backup system, and this particular community will not allow a water supply driven backup pump.

The usual alternative is a second pump with a battery backup system. But this technology has been around for awhile...

Would it be more reasonable to now skip the second pump and simply install a battery and inverter that would power the main pump?

My sump motor is 1/2 hp that requires a 15a supply.

Wondering if anybody else has attempted this solution.

Thanks, Chet

That would require a large inverter, and either a lot of circuitry to switch supply, or a very large charger.

You may be able to find a UPS that would allow you to connect additional batteries to it for larger storage capacity.

I'd assume the 1/2 hp pump draws around 6 amps continuous or 750 watts. Harbor Freight is selling 1000 watt (continuous) /2000 watt (intermittent) inverters for under $100. This SHOULD be enough to drive a 1/2 hp pump but you never know with HF products. You would need a cut over circuit, preferably with a time delay to avoid multiple kickovers when the power flickers. You really should switch the 12 volt input line also (BIG relay) since the inverter tends to draw appreciable power at no load.

Keep > For the first time in my life I'm living in a home with a sump pump. >

I have not attempted that solution. (Neither has Ig)

An induction (AC) motor can draw up to 10X rated current on startup. An inverter may well have trouble with that. DC pumps with battery backup are old technology as you say -- partly because that solution works. My FIL had such a system, had no problems with it.

There is some value in having redundancy in a sump pump system. Motors, switchs and pumps do fail, usually when called upon to work.

Don't move into a building that will flood and is filled with radioactive gas?

They actually make these things as packaged systems. I was looking at houses to buy many years a go and ran into one. it was a black plastic box about the size of a camping cooler. it had one or two car batteries in it and an inverter and charger. The inverter may be very simple as it needs only to be able to run motors, no other appliances. Or, maybe they put a DC motor on the pump, then no inverter needed at all. The thing MAY have had a Sears label on it, but I'm not sure.

Do you actually have enough water coming into the sump to require pumping during a power outage?

Jon

On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 15:52:09 +0000 (UTC), with neither quill nor qualm, Cydrome Leader quickly quoth:

We have a winner!

Roy was right, Chet. Make sure the radon pickup tube is an inch or two above the sump pump's highest water level.

-- Mistrust the man who finds everything good, the man who finds everything evil, and still more the man who is indifferent to everything. -- Johann K. Lavater

Guys, thanks for the feedback.

When the Radon guy came, he immediately cut off the part of the radon tube that extended down into the sump well. It is well above the water now and at no point was it actually in the water.

So there's water in the sump well and the Radon tube is just below the surface of the lid over the well.

And still the system burps... The Radon guy had never run into the situation before...

Frustrating... Chet

Hi Guys, thanks for the suggestions.

To clarify, the Radon pipe inside the sump well NEVER touched the surface of the water.

When the Radon guy came over to diagnose the problem, he even shortened the end of the tube to just below the bottom of the protective cover. He also admitted he'd never seen the problem before.

And the problem of the burping persists...

Frustrating...

Chet

Can you try to isolate the problem? Turn off the radon pump and see if the burping persists, do same with the sump pump, etc. Could burping be caused by some gas exiting through water in the sump, etc?

On Wed, 8 Aug 2007 08:40:35 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Chet & Audrey Roberts" quickly quoth:

I'll give odds it's something in the (mis)design of the sump pump, Chet. Does it have a foot valve installed? If not, maybe that would solve your burping. It's surely a water discharge from the pump which is causing the burp. Perhaps once it shuts off, the water in the tube redistributes itself into the sump and makes the noise as it does.

If it's only a noise problem and the system is working properly, perhaps a baffle system around the sump would shield you from its disturbing belches.

-- Mistrust the man who finds everything good, the man who finds everything evil, and still more the man who is indifferent to everything. -- Johann K. Lavater

Hey Guys!

Thanks to everyone for their responses!

I guess I'll stick to a traditional battery backup system.

And it was good advice to have a 'spare' pump handy...

The ideal solution would be to get the city code changed to allow a water supply evacuation pump. (the water supply should always be there, and no battery hassles...)

The communities around us allow them, I'll have to see what I can do to sway the local city fathers... Chet

Yes, I've done an isolation check list.

The burping will stop if the Radon blower is turned off.

The burping will also stop if you remove the lid to the sump well.

With the radon fan turned back on, and the lid placed back in position, the burping will resume.

There's a viewing glass on the lid, and you can actually see the surface of the water being perturbed...

I'm almost thinking the radan exhaust fan is almost too strong...

Chet

It sounds like that to me too. Can a vent/flapper valve be added so that when the radon fan is running it opens up slightly and allows a bit of air to enter in?

I can't remember if you mentioned how often the radon unit runs. If it is only occasionally, maybe a small valve could be added so that some room air could enter when the radon unit is switched on (shrug).

Sounds to me like your check valve on the sump pump is faulty thereby allowing the radon fan to suck air back into the sump via the water discharge line. Replace the check valve and install a spring loaded vacuum break valve to allow room air into the sump to create turbulence therein. Gerry :-)} London, Canada

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:07:52 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Chet & Audrey Roberts" quickly quoth:

Ah, you solved it. The (evidently TIGHT-FITTING) lid creates a closed system and you are sucking air through the sump system, causing the burps. Create a hole in the sump tube or open the hole in the lid to allow more air circulation while the radon pump is on. Finis!

If you can see the top of the water line ripple as it 'burps', you're probably sucking air in through the around-foundation or under-slab perforated leach/drain lines, which AFAICT is exactly what the radon evacuation blower is supposed to be doing - better to collect the radon and dilute it with 'outside air' and pull it outside than let it collect and concentrate under the house.

See if you can turn down the blower suction a tad - get a motor speed control and/or adjust the blower-to-housing gap. And connect a U-tube manometer or a Magnehelic gauge to monitor the actual operating pressure inside the sump. The Radon guys probably have an optimum negative pressure they want to hit.

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Dude, if you're worried, put a battery backup unit in, that will handle the dewatering chores automatically for an hour or two of run-time if you are away or asleep. Then get either a gas-engine centrifugal pump or a 120V generator plant to handle the longer duration emergencies.

The generator would be a better choice for long outages, besides the sump pump it will also run some lights, the refrigerator and the furnace blower, and keep the house operating.

The gas engine pump would be the choice if you expect flooding due to the vastly higher volume. Also handy if you are in a wildfire area

- stick a hard suction line in the swimming pool, have an ample supply of 1-1/2" hose and a fog nozzle or two, load all the valuables in the car, and prepare to defend the homestead until you really have to go.

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