OT: Why do you think there is water in the ethanol that gas stations sell?

Okay, Why do you think there is water in the ethanol that gas stations sell?
I have 22 engines around here and I don't have any problems with water
in the 87 octane regular gasoline plus ethanol that I buy. We live in western Wisconsin where it gets plenty cold enough to create problems if there was any.
I ain't no expert, but I hear that the producers of ethanol go to great trouble to remove the last traces of water from their product.
Seems to me that if they left any significant amount of water in it, that it would be causing huge problems for everyone.
Actually, isn't ethanol a major component of some fuel tank additives? I think that alcohol actually absorbs water.
If you are seeing water in the tank or in the fuel bowl of a carburetor, it is probably caused by water condensing out of the air in the tank as the temperature goes up and down.
The last thing that I would do is to slosh the fuel around in the tank in an attempt to mix the water with the gasoline. The water is going to separate out again very quickly.
Let's see---- run a test. -Pour a couple of shots of 80 proof whiskey into a glass. We know it's only 40% ethanol and 60% something else. -Hold the glass up to the light. -Look through the glass.
Do you see any water separated from the ethanol?
Case closed unless someone cares to educate me.
In don't like ethanol either, guys. But if we are going to bad mouth it, let's do it for the right reasons, like only aout half the power of gasoline, or rasing the cost of food, or something like that.
Pete Stanaitis ----------------
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What I've heard about it is that water and ethanol mix in an extreme range of proportions, and gasoline and ethanol do, too. But when there is more than 3% or 4% water in the ethanol, it won't mix with gasoline.
So a strong shot of ethanol will absorb water in your gas tank, but if there's too much water, the resulting solution won't mix with the gas. And gas/ethanol mixtures that pick up too much water will separate the gas and the ethanol.
Or so I've read.
--
Ed Huntress



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Hold on, non-gasohol gasoline doesn't absorb water.
Gasohol with shall we say, dry ethanol, can absorb some water.
Someone get out your graduated cylinder and start adding water to a volume of gasohol until the mixture won't take anymore water and get back to us with the numbers.
Wes
-- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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wrote:

Isn't that exactly what it says above?

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Clair says .63 oz of water will mix with 128 oz of E10 gasohol. Okay, still thinking .63 oz into 12.8 oz of ethanol. 4.+% . Okay, I got it, you got it. It was past my bed time last night.
Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:39:22 -0400, Wes

Yes it does - a small amount, but some.. In the range of 0.0175 grams watter per 100 grams of gasoline, or 0.175 grams of water per Kg of gasoline.
That is roughly 1/2 gram per gallon.

The generally accepted numbers for E10 gasoline are maximum .5% at standard atmosphere (72F at sea level) - or 3.8 teaspoons per gallon. (18.7 grams) which is roughly 36 times as much as clear gasoline can hold.
Other sources state E10 holds 50 times as much water as non-oxygenated gasoline.
At higher temperatures this is increased marginally, and at cooler temperatures this capacity drops.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Thank you for some numbers I can try to keep in my head.
Wes
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There WILL be water in your gas, with or without ethanol. Anhydrous ethanol is pretty expensive to make, it forms an azeotrope around about 96-97%(too lazy to look it up), which means you can't get the anhydrous stuff by plain distillation. It's pretty expensive to get the rest of the water out by other means, so they don't for gasahol. So what you're getting already has a few percent in it, plus whatever the ethanol picks up in storage and transport and it WILL do that. Then the gas itself will dissolve a few percent of water, always present in the storage tanks because of condensation. I had a 2 gallon container of gasahol that was exposed to -6 temps, it had a silver-dollar-sized slug of ice in the bottom when I drained it.
Gas additives, like Heet, mostly have methanol in them, much easier to get anhydrous and not too corrosive in small volumes.
Trinary mixtures can get some fairly strange results(non-intuitive, anyway), pure ethanol can mix with gasoline, but if water is present, it knocks solubility down and the excess drops to the bottom, conveniently where the gas pump intake resides. But water, sans gas, will mix in any proportion with ethanol. So if the service station hasn't drained water in awhile, someday you may be sucking a water- ethanol mix one cold morning. Solubilities also change with temperature.
Stan
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wrote:

"dry" ethanol does not stay dry when exposed to air with moisture in it - ethanol has a great affinity for water.

Id does, and that is the problem. It absorbs the water and mixes it with the gasoline.

That is one sourse - but the same thing happens in the distribution tank.
When more water is absorbed than the ethanol can hold at a given temperature, it "falls out". It is called Phase Separation. Ethanol holds more water when warm than when cold.

Add a bit more water, so in effect the hooch is only 60 proof, and you will likely see a difference. If not, put it in the refrigerator.

neet ethanol has just over half the calorific density per unit weight of gasoline. With the SG of both ethanol and gasoline being very close to 0.78 that means the energy density of ethanol is roughly hald that of gasoline. HOWEVER, IF ethanol can hold 50% water at a given temperature and pressure, then the ethanol/water portion of the fuel has only 1/4 the energy density of gasoline

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On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 14:50:45 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

<snip>
<snip again>
The label on one of my single malt bottles said that when you add water, or let a poured drink stand, it will become slightly cloudy, which is natural. That would be the phase separation. I've seen it, although poured drinks don't always last that long.
Pete Keillor
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spaco wrote:

I run 91 premium pump gas in my airplane. The gas has somewhere between 0%-10% ethanol in it. I drain a sample from the lowest part of the fuel system and check it every time I fly.
I have never seen any water in it. I'm certain that there is some water absorbed by the ethanol, but never enough to separate out.
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<snip>
I wonder why there is ethanal in gasoline to begin with?
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Buerste wrote:

The corn lobby.
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On 8/30/2010 11:50 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

yepper!
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Richard Lamb




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WE HAVE A WINNER!!!
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I think the stated purpose was to reduce dependance on foreign oil. So, they drive tractors up and down the field to plant, and harves. More fuel to haul the corn to the distillery. More fuel to heat the mash to get the alcohol out. And then more fuel to haul the alcohol to the gasoline factory.
They would be better off, to encourage drilling and oil production on US soil, and off the coasts. If that really is the agenda, of course.
--
Christopher A. Young
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Stormin Mormon wrote:

With 20% lower energy, don't we burn 20% more fuel to get there?
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On 9/2/2010 12:57 PM, CaveLamb wrote:

Is plot to make us lose weight. Same price for less miles means we have less to spend, higher food price means can't buy as much with it. Damn do-gooders.
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Our good friends at the EPA (let me spell that out: Environmental _Protection_ Agency) are scheduled to protect us by the end of September, a few weeks from now. They're going to protect us by making a decision on whether or not to propose an increase of from 10% to 15% for ethanol in our gasoline.
I have a better suggestion. If the EPA really wants to protect us, they should ban the use of ethanol fuels as they are currently produced. I haven't heard of, seen or read anything in the last several years that tells me this movement is in any way actually protecting the environment.
The only thing as near as I can tell, that's being protected with this movement are a few big time corn farmers that produce the raw material for making the ethanol.
Science can do way better than this and use other plants to produce ethanol if they must. Why not use the corn to feed some of the starving millions around the globe? That'll keep farmer John busy.
Please people, we're running out of time here. Read the link above and then call or write your congress person and tell them you really want this whole idea squashed. Its not helping us, and the EPA to date has shown no real grasp of the science and economics involved in this matter. I'm afraid they'll just sign off on the 15% requirement. There's a whole lot more than how well your engine runs at stake here.
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On 9/3/2010 12:01 AM, CaveLamb wrote:

1. If you are going to ask people to "read the link above" then provide the link.
2. Calling or writing Congrescritters without having a docket number is generally a waste of effort as they have no idea what you're on about. When there's actually a bill before the Congress, then calling or writing can make a difference.
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