Quantum Mechanics and Self-Replicating Machines

Doug Goncz wrote:


Enjoying the rest after (successfully) returning *from* Mars. :-/
Pete (remembering Columbia) Brooks
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Doug Goncz wrote:

snip self replication
Interesting, but what would be the point in inefficiently producing machine tools that there is no market for? Are you planning on colonizing some distant planet with machinists?
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You sound awfully scpetical; this is the dream of 90% of the newsgroup! :^)
Tim
-- In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!" Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms
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wrote:

Or better yet, colonize it with machines..... :)
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Now be realistic Gunner.
You would eventually get tired of that job, after some time. Say, maybe, five or ten years. Like the old joke says, "...and it took the undertaker four hours to get the smile off his face...."
Jim
================================================= please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================
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Yes, I understand the difference between solving for the critical path using exhaustive search and comparing 10,000 paths in the blink of an eye, selecting the best 1000, and continuing for 1000 iterations. With the quantity matrix in technological order, a finite problem not requiring exhausting search, you can avoid exhaustive search and select candidate operations with a real good initial population, adding the others with genetic selection.

Yes, that's all we need. I am not arguing for complete solution of the moment to moment problem of which machine part to replicate next. Most frequently, you just fix the one that's either broken, or the one that's worn out, and that includes scraping ways. But what if the RS-232 level comparator on your CNC goes out on Mars? Fabricate a new TTL gate? Stock the entire TTL inventory?

I am familiar with running the work through the machine self-guided, dong the work on the machine with controls or programs, and attaching the machine to the work to produce a feature on the work which is too large.

Some. The process of replication starts with picking, from the existing inventory of mills, lathes, drill presses, and various grinders, a pair of each for study, determining which jigs and fixtures must be made to replicate each and every part of those particular machines with themselves, and condensing the resulting solution matrix into a specification for a pair of new machines, building them, and knowing that each and every part on the new machine can be reproduced by one of its interchangeable partners.
There's no CAD program that can solve that with a single click. And doing it manually, or without a theoretical basis to guide progress and allocation of resources, invites errors, budget overruns, and cancellation of the project, never to be attempted again.
Yours,
Doug Goncz Replikon Research (via aol.com)
Nuclear weapons are just Pu's way of ensuring that plenty of Pu will be available for The Next Big Experiment, outlined in a post to sci.physics.research at Google Groups under "supercritical"
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It's no longer listed at Lindsay, at least not on:
http://www.lindsaybks.com/prod/index.html
but that's where I read about it. It is only in cases of extreme production using every machine tool in every factory that we even approach the intensity required of a self-replication project. Older machinists have explained to me that they had to drill 1/16 inch holes with 5 HP drill presses because that's what was available, or had to flame cut a hole in a 2 inch steel plate because the mill with the ten by twenty foot bed was in use, even during non-wartime three-shift production.
But I first read about it in Lindsay.
Yours,
Doug Goncz Replikon Research (via aol.com)
Nuclear weapons are just Pu's way of ensuring that plenty of Pu will be available for The Next Big Experiment, outlined in a post to sci.physics.research at Google Groups under "supercritical"
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Yes, but people are the best place to put critical information, like that which is necessary for a group's survival
.>So you want people to remain back home, and ship

That's fine, but even in earth orbit, there is a time lag. And to Mars, the only place capable of accepting terraforming, it's what, four minutes?

Yes, I think it would be reasonable to bring two universal self-replicating machine tools to Mars.

I agree. I'll stay as long as I can stand up and work.

With a reliable nuclear power source, these operations are less massive in earth moving requirements. Pure sugar, water, air, and 6 months worth of vitamins are all I need to survive. And not that sucrose stuff. If we're going to make it, let's pick a good one.
And some little furry creatures for the occasional snack....

Yes. Different in scale, different problems.

Other than the theoretical knowledge and practical application required to do it, which will create massive spinoff industries.

The one we have is getting a little dirty, stinky, and crowded for me, present company excepted. I can barely stand living here and would prefer not to die here, although I love it. We are killing this place.
Maybe the discussion should center on what to teach The Children of Mars: a whole new thing, or just a few changes? Pick a language to teach in, first. The math we have books for.
Maybe a little ecological responsibility and a new theory of money. I have those, too.
Yours,
Doug Goncz Replikon Research (via aol.com)
Nuclear weapons are just Pu's way of ensuring that plenty of Pu will be available for The Next Big Experiment, outlined in a post to sci.physics.research at Google Groups under "supercritical"
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And lo, it came about, that on Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:05:19 GMT in

    Hmmm, comparison shopper could be more fun. Or the guy who writes the consumer reviews for the paper.
--
pyotr filipivich
What is normal?
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Thank you, Larry. Since the other replies have been long winded, and yours the most enthusiastic, I though I'd take the time to acknowledge it here.
The reason for the pairs is, of course, in the abscence of computers, CAD files, CAD systems, NC machines, and probably even writing paper, self-reproduction of a shop full of machine tools is possible only when there is two of everything. And your post indicates you understand this.
For those that do not, in the absence of a drawing or schedule, one might be busy repairing things all day, but if more operators became available, it would probably be most effective to work directly from each machine tool as if it were broken.
That is, disassemble, extract one part, reassemble to be sure that nothing was lost, then focus just on the one part, with calipers if need be, and duplicate it.
A whole machine shop might have a lathe, mill, surface grinder, and cylindrical grinder, all powered by some BIG theoretical power supply that I am not including in my quantum mechanical scribblings. Assume unlimited power, limited resources, limited time, and limited labor, but a steadily growing demand as things wear out and new Mars colonists arrive.
So you pull the spindle out of the mill, put everything else back on it, hang an Out of Order sign on it, UNPLUG IT AND LOCK IT OUT, and measure the spindle with calipers. You pull some stock, or, having unlimited power, melt some rock, refine some metal, pour a slug, and rough it out on the lathe, file or finish turn, and head for the cylindrical grinder.
You grind it close, maybe using a long-since-worn out micrometer with no graduations as a direct mesurement device, and you get it close enough. Then you notice a problem.
It's of hardened steel, now, since you hardened it in between the lathe and the cylindrical grinder. But you forgot to slot it! It's going to spin if you put if back in the mill, so you put a narrow wheel on the grinder, a wheel that happens to be made from Martian rock held together with synthesized hydrocarbons, and, grossly overloading the tool, you grind a suitable slot, and you are ready to disassemble.
Now, if you were an experienced machinst, and I am not saying I am, you'd have thought BEFORE roughing the slug, finishing it, and hardening it, that you could have slotted it efficiently on the mill.
But wait a second, the mill is OOO. So you have to have a second mill.
Now one of the first finite algorithms we have to apply to self-reproduction is sort of a combination of old wisdom and something extremely specific. We "do the hard part first", which is the old wisdom, and specifically, we take the slug, center drill it, and then, on centers, on the mill, machine the slot first, before even turning it.
Why? Because, by the old wisdom, if there's something that needs doing in parts, and you do the hard part as soon as possible, not necessarily first, you've got a little working room and you can avoid mistakes like hardening the spindle, then grinding the slot.
Now this is easy to incorporate into a computer program, but to a person, it is wisdom that cannot be taught unless they learn all about finite math and the critical path method. (Gantt charts. Hate 'em) But an appropriate, sufficiently deep theoretical understanding is the equivalent of wisdom, and usually costs as much in tuition and labor as you'd earn learning it. And this theoretical understanding can be taught without knowing anything about finite problems or applications. Just a few simple things to learn, and you're ready to fly to Mars, and if one of your fellow colonists has to take over when you drop that spindle on your foot, no problem. Everyone is multi-trained without seventeen lifetimes of apprenticeships.

How's your foot?
Remember this is human-facilitated on-demand reproduction, so there's no grey goo. You're probably the only person on this thread so far that gets that bit.

On Mars we can synthesize the carbon and rubber from atmospheric CO2 and water, draw up a couple thousand yards of wire, and make a tire in an appropriate time. It all changes when you have access to energy, and that means nuclear.
Yours,
Doug Goncz Replikon Research (via aol.com)
Recent Original Posts:
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On 02 Sep 2003 19:48:19 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com.pif ( Doug Goncz ) pixelated:

Blame it on the engineers of the group. You know how THEY get. (Huh? You're one? Oh, sorry.)

Y'mean "when there are two"? But it could be 2+ dissimilar models as long as you have all the capabilities of both in both.

Hell's Bells, boy. I misunderstood that -entirely-. I thought that you just put the pairs into a dark room and they did the metallic stiffy stuffin' until they had reproduced themselves. Never mind. ;)

Oh, you may say that this lifetime, but what about the others? Shucks, I forgot #10. You HAVE read The 10 Rules for Being Human, right? Well, in case you haven't, here they are:
Rules for Being Human
1. You will receive a body: You may like it, or hate it, but it'll be yours for the entire period this time around.
2. You will learn lessons. You are enrolled in an informal full-time school called life. Each day in this school you will have the opportunity to learn lessons. You may like the lessons, or think they are irrelevant and stupid.
3. There are no mistakes, only lessons. Growth is a process of trial and error. The "failed" experiments are as much a part of the process as the experiment that ultimately works.
4. A lesson is repeated until it is learned. A lesson will be presented to you in various forms until you have learned it. When you have learned it you can go on to the next lesson.
5. Learning lessons do not end. There is no part of life that does not contain lessons. If you are alive, there are lessons to be learned.
6. "There" is no better than "here". When your "there" becomes a "here" you will simply obtain another "there" that will again look better than "here".
7. Others are merely mirrors of you. You cannot love or hate something about another person unless it reflects to you something you love or hate about yourself.
8. What you make of life is up to you. You have all the tools and resources you need. What you do with them is up to you. The choice is yours.
9. Your answers lie inside you. The answers to life's questions lie inside of you. All you need to do is to look, listen, and trust.
10. You will forget all of this.
                        - Source Unknown

Oh, they seldom bite me on the feet, but my legs, butt, hip, arms, shoulders, back, neck, head, hands, and fingers get nibbled a lot. I'm surrounded by machines.

No goo? What fun is that?
P.S: I wonder what the robots think about all this... ------------------------------ REAL men don't need free plans ------------------------------ http://diversify.com REAL websites
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Huge snip Having read this thread and understanding some of it all I can say is that there are a few people here who need to get laid! Tim disregard the previous statement. lg no neat sig line
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LOL! I got laid two nights ago, but smoochie was too drunk last night to do anything but talk.... and then snore.
Are you gettin' any?
Darn these antidepressants, they make it difficult sometimes....
Yours,
Doug Goncz Replikon Research (via aol.com)
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Doug,
This is a kool idea, as many of your posts are (even drill press abuse). I have two comments - 1. you have not shown proof that "two of everything" or even "two of anything" is the smallest number required and 2. I think replication without evolution is undesirable.
Early man used sticks and stones as tools. Everything we currently have (good and bad) has evolved from those simple beginnings. So I suggest that the minimum number of anything is very close to zero. Send McGiver to Mars with a Swiss Army Knife (and an unlimited supply of bicycle spokes and boot laces) and by the time you get there, you'll have to hunt for a place to park your shuttle between the Bridgeports.
Now project that evolutionary capacity to a capability that may be available in ideal environments and simple replication of current technology may even be undesirable. Grow your lathe ways from a single diamond crystal - now your iron machine tools are as desirable as the barber's leeches. Evolve some more and now you can generate any product by selectively ADDING molecules of the appropriate type to the proper location - why machine by chip REMOVAL? When your razor gets dull, it can be sharpened by replacing the displaced molecules not by abrading until a fresh edge is exposed.
Machine tool self-replication is an excellent philosophy exercise - and that brings me to the next level of evolution. Perhaps we don't really need THINGS as instances of matter, we can just THINK them and therefore don't actually need to perform an actual task or build a particular device to know the cosmic truth. We think through the problems, then we know that we can build that 42-shot-simiautomattic-revolver with each part perfectly heat treated and accurate to a couple of milliangstroms. Now that we know, we don't have to actually build it to prove our knowledge or skill. (Made you think about some old westerns, didn't it?)
Just some ideas to think about.
Bruce

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Like the Velcro in my "service occupation" shoes from Payless.
And when things go wrong in the space program, there are usually few massive environmental consequences, unlike Exxon Valdez. But people do give their lives in this field. Not just the astronauts, either. Wasn't there a big explosion at the Shuttle booster plant? I assume someone got hurt in that.
Maybe all I need is a CAD program that can simulate manual control of a machine tool, knowing its parts and constraints, according to a program like NC. Then I can manually select a part, copy it, chuck it up, and see if it is in the work envelope, one by one, without leaving the keyboard and mouse. Do any of you know of a CAD program that can do that? Simulate ways, leadscrews, gibs, and chucks, but not actual cutting?
Yours,
Doug Goncz Replikon Research (via aol.com)
Recent Original Posts:
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Top posting:
I love that Google lets me reply to my own post, 9 years later.
I added these questions to my LinkedIn profile. I am looking for mathematician machinists.
Is there a minimal self-reproducing universal machine tool (SRMT) design?
Would a minimal SRMT design have the minimal feature set, the minimal component set, and the minimal sets of assemblies and superassemblies?
Are there any SRMT designs with one to one bijective or one to many surjective mappings between atomic feature types and SRMT configurations?
Is there a one to one bijective mapping between the 13 orthogonal coordinate systems and corresponding minimal native coordinate system SRMT designs?
Are therer any of the 13 orthogonal coordinate systems in which one of the most basic SRMT components, say a cap screw, or a bearing ball, cannot be modeled?
Doug Goncz Replikon Research Seven Corners, VA 22044 Alexandria, VA 22314 703-475-7456
Remember the drill press mill days? I still have it. I still use it. I only made one of the integral drill jigs, though. I never replicated that key reproducible part.
On Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:43:59 PM UTC-4, Doug Goncz wrote:

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DGoncz wrote:

Giganews does, too.
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I would try these questions in "comp.soft-sys.math.mathematica" and the like.
Joe Gwinn
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On Friday, February 8, 2013 7:52:30 PM UTC-5, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

Joe,
I have, a few times. I am now looking for people on LinkedIn. Mathematician machinist types.
I am pretty sure all I need to do to demonstrate self-reproduction of my Super Shop is add a centerless grinder for the way tubes.
Mathematically, I see
a set of unparameterized "atomic" feature types such as screw thread, hole, block, step, and the like, under a set of parametrized features such as 3/8-16x2 inch female UNC 2B hole, under
a set of atomic part types such as 3/8-16 machine nut, under
a set of Bill of Materials parts such as the 3/8-16 nut holding the lead screw to the right lead screw bed bearing and a set of stock parts such as a 4 inch, 0.040 inch thick, 1 inch arbor hole, 260 tooth saw blade in HSS, under
a set of assemblies such as the carriage, the bed, the tool post, the spindle, an auxiliary spindle, and the like, under
a set of assembly and superassembly configurations such a milling mode, thread cutting mode, sawing mode,
SUCH THAT
each atomic feature type is in one to one correspondence with one of the configurations,
AND
each atomic feature is in one to one correspondence with a configuration at a particular setting of all of its various movable, driven, and clampable axes.
That is my peculiar obsession.
"Under" seems to mean "referred to by" or "defining".
I could cross post something to sci.math and rcm. Maybe that would catch the right eyes to move this 30 year old project along.
Julian Leland at Swarthmore made one recently. A self-reproducing (NC) milling machine that makes all the brackets to bolt together all the frame bits supporting its stock spindle motor and drive and its stock 3 axis linear motion table.
Since 1979 I have not hear of anything similar other than the Frankenmill I threw together in 1997 to prove the concept. That got written up in a footnote in KSRM in 2004.
I have jury duty today and can't sleep.
Doug
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When? I don't recall the posting.

I bet they are not so common. Pure math types are a danger to themselves in a machine shop. I'd try the Applied Math department.
War story: When I was in school, I had a young math professor (taught me linear algebra) who invited us students to an academic tea at his nearby house, which was made of stone. Where I saw him using a hammerdrill to install some electrical component, like an outlet box. I was amazed - I don't think any of the other math professors could have done anything of the kind. My professor soon left the math dept to found a new dept on applied math.

This actually sounds more like object-oriented programming and data modeling, both being under Computer Science.

Is there a diagnostic code for this?

Actually, NASA is thinking about such things in general, to come up with ways to build a moonbase without having to haul all the components up from Earth. The basic idea is a nuclear reactor powering a 3D laser printer that fuses moon dust into building blocks and components.
Joe Gwinn
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