Shop heating question

As some of you might remember i'm making a shop out of a 20 foot container and as others might have guessed Its been somewhat suspended
for the canadian winter but I'm trying to sort out how to effectively heat the completed project (and heat the work in progress so i can make progress in the winter)
I'm in Ottawa Canada so it can get pretty cold here and temporarily the wind can get under the floor. (I'm going to try and get the area below the container shileded form the wind in the sproong and possibly even get some insulation up under the floor
I'm looking for effective heating ideas for the 20x8 area to make it warm enough to work in and ideally to buy some type of heater that will eventually become the primary heat source for the container as well.
In the end the wall will be insulated to about R14 but right now they are bare steel and i have a bit of a condensation issue on the inside being caused by the snow on the flat roof causing an artificial cold spot.
Any ideas would be appreciated. Especially ones i can tie into the electrical panel for the shop later once the permanent feed is run
thanks
Brent Ottawa Canada
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Brent wrote:

How about this: http://www.mrheater.com/productdetails_extended.asp?catidP&id 7
I'm planning on using the larger version in my shop. A key feature is that it's a proper vented furnace, so unlike the ventless ones, it's not dumping moisture and combustion gasses into the space. Another option would be an RV furnace, pretty similar and you might be able to get a used one from a wrecked RV cheap.
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With full R-14 and relatively small external sides, you might be able to get by with electric heat. Operating cost is higher but materials are much cheaper.
Other than that, get a gas fired unit, 45k btu should be plenty, make sure it is the VENTED type. Hanging heater takes less floor space, you can often score an 80% floor furnace for free.
Brent wrote:

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wrote:

Many floor mounted units can be hung or wall mounted as well.
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The OP has the 8' ceiling height, even raising a standard unit up does not do too much for adding space. :(
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

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its appears that although the 45K unit looked good its designed for about 600 square feet and i have 160 square feet, some rough calculations were done further down and it seems the best way to describe putting a 45Kbtu heater in a 20 foot shipping container would be ... Volcanic
the thing is it seems if i get the insulation to a full R14 then electric is a very viable option as even my tools will contribute a significant amount to the heat of the shop
or i will be looking at a VERY SMALL heating solution and installing a heat recovery ventilator (Air to air heat exchanger)
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Brent wrote:

So, look for a used RV furnace, they're smaller than the Mr. Heater unit, both physically and in output. The one in my ~60 ish square foot truck camper works well without incinerating me.

Never underestimate the heat output of a 10kW welder :)

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Tiny direct vent heaters. "Legal in Canada and all us states except Mass" 8000, 11,000, 17,000 btu/hr, propane or NG. No experience or affiliation, just the first place that comes up on the web looking for a basic direct vent heater in a small size.
http://www.stpaulmercantile.com/eskabeusa.htm
--
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Ecnerwal wrote:

http://www.atwoodmobile.com/Products/default.cfm
http://www.atwoodmobile.com/Products/furnace/7900.cfm
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Thanks for the links, I need to figure things out since canadian prices are way different with Propane Gas diesel and Heating oil all significantly higher than the US but with Electric at an average of 5.5C/KWH (But with time of day billing) I need to get my fuel costs for Propane, Oil, and Hydro and run the numbers before i figure out which solution to run with. the other thing is because i am intent on preserving the mobility of the container it means i have to rule out natural gas and have to do a tank propane or heating oil solution
Also Ontario is one of those places that takes a VERY low view to non certified installations and uses of gas appliances so i know I'd need a gas fitter in and possibly even a gas fitter to even buy the needed parts. I dont consider that safety factor a bad thing just another item on the list i need to consider
Thanks so far i've gained a huge amount of insight and info by the way
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In article

Run a time of day thermostat with electric heat, and crank it higher when the price is low - with insulation, the mass of the tools will carry for a while when the price is higher.
With an 85% efficient furnace, electric at 5.5 cents is about equal to LPG at $1.25/gallon. Oil under the same assumptions would have to be about $1.89 to compete.
Electric is smaller, more portable, and easier for you to install, and probably cheaper to run. Done. You might even start with just the dehumidifier, lights and tools - but with time of day metering, a small electric heater that cranks when the price is low will cut your overall bill even more. You could borrow a trick from some shops that use radiant floor heat (too much hassle for your setup, IMHO) and connect small heating elements to any heavy machine bases - making sure that the machines are warmer than the air, which keeps off condensate and rust.
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wrote:

they are going to turn up time based metering here with off peak down to 3 cents /KWH and peak close to 10
its HUGELY in my best interests to do everything i can to get as much of my power use offpeak as possible but that was going to be another project for another post and day
I'll take pictures and post them as i finish the container
i'm still whittling away at getting the delivery and paint phase pictures up.
and the warm machines is an awesome idea too a 2800 pound mill could hold a good deal of latent heat in its base =)
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Brent wrote:

With that kind of a delta, I'm thinking deep cycle battery bank and inverter to run the machines, and heating some good thermal mass like a heating element in a hunk of concrete, all charged off peak.

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Brent wrote:

Lot of cash, and mass, and space, and maintenance in that thought. For a piddling 7 cents a KWH differential, not remotely worth it. I know a bit too much about that particular area since my new shop appears to be going to be off grid, given the nutty policies of the local power company. You'll never make back the money you could make in interest on what it costs you for all that. The only way that (and more) make sense for me is that what the power company wants for a hookup is astronomically more (for a piddling 700 feet or so, yet).
From here, the high-rate power is cheap, and the low rate power is unbelievably cheap.
--
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Ecnerwal wrote:

For that piddling 700' order service to a meter pedestal by the road, and then take it the rest of the way yourself. It ain't brain surgery after all, you just need to buy two transformers and 700' of MV cable along with the "elbow" connections. Of course you'll be paying for the couple percent transformer losses instead of the utility, but that's still preferable to the cost and maintenance of an off grid system for shop sized loads. Two pad mount transformers and one continuous segment of MV cable require almost no maintenance, and since you disconnect at your meter ped for any maintenance you don't need any special tools like hot sticks.
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According to their people, they won't let me do that - they won't simply connect up near the road and leave me to it from there. Being a monopoly, if they are lying to me, it's a bit hard to do much about them. I can try b*tching to the PUC, but it's clear they have the PUC in their hip pocket. Certainly the most uncooperative power utility I've ever had dealings with...
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Ecnerwal wrote:

Not sure where you are, but the utility doesn't have a choice generally. If you order service to a meter pedestal, that's what they have to provide. Their responsibility as well as their right to question anything ends at the meter mounted on that ped. The only authority with jurisdiction over what happens after that meter would be your local building inspector. You just need to put together your plan and go over it with the inspector, the utility has no say in it.
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Some of the deltas are considered instant like the winter morning peak starts at 6 am but 5:59 am is Off peak and they have a winter and summer power season
I'm thinking a PLC and some kind of load switch to take most of the house onto batteries during peak and only switch back during offpeak. Of course the wonderful issues of backfeeding and gracefully switching back over that need some investigating but on a commercial level its done frequently. I want to keep an eye open for that or for an additional secondary source too. Having a solar panel on the roof is camouflage here it changes me form the industrial neighbour to some crazy hippie. Which unfortunately is good camouflage for a frugal individual who used to live in a rural community until urban sprawl swallowed it up and its now becoming a bedroom community for the city of Ottawa proper.
there are a lot of numbers to crunch and a lot of inputs so thats where and why a PLC seems best to me, especially since i'm comfy programming one to do reasonably advanced functions
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:51:53 -0800 (PST), Brent

Not necessarily so: last may, when junior moved into their first house, they bought a used NG clothes dryer even though there was no connection provided for it (gas furnace, water heater and fireplace). He asked the supply utility, and was informed that they would extend a line from the existing cluster of shut off valves for a charge of $200.00, or he could do it himself and they would inspect the installation (I don't think there was even an inspection charge, I may be wrong) and issue an inspection certificate. The end result being that he was complimented on doing things well above minimum standard. Why not install NG with a flex line and quick connect to a NG barbecue connection at your gas meter, assuming you already have NG service? Gerry :-)} London, Canada
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:15:35 GMT, Ecnerwal

You can NOT use an unvented fuel burning heater in a machine shop setting, especially if the room is sealed up tight to keep the heat in - when you burn gas or oil, you are dumping mass quantities of water vapor moisture from combustion into the air. And unless you have the combustion air vented to go outside, all that moisture goes into the shed air.
You'll be damned close to rainclouds forming inside the shed. Warm and humid is very bad for machined steel and iron products.
Oh, and unvented is also illegal in California AFAIK. Unless they've relented recently and allow them with oxygen depletion sensors - that I would never trust my life on anyway.
There are 100 different ways to do it, depending on what you find at a good price.
An RV forced air furnace would work fine, but now you need to run a 120VAC to 12VDC converter to run the fan motor. And consider most RV equipment has sleeve bearing brush type fan motors that are meant for intermittent use, you are going to run it all winter and get maybe a year or two out of each fan motor.
If you want small and reasonably priced, residential direct vent (coaxial fitting through the wall) console heaters would work fine, propane or natural, and they come as small as 14K BTUH. Put it on the center of the end wall, or under that one double-glazed window you were going to put in the long wall facing South - someplace where you weren't going to stack things in front anyway.
--<< Bruce >>--
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