On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:37:17 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner quickly quoth:
I bet they'd quadruple sales if they put a bit of money into making it a decent website.
======================================================== Was that an African +
Sliding head Swiss and Swiss CNC has replaced them for the most part. On the other hand...OmniTurns have replaced them for short run/just in time parts in many cases. If you are making less than 50k of a part, then need to setup for the next part in 5 minutes..or multple differnt families a day..they are hard to beat.
Hard to answer. As factory trained OmniTurn field tech (now independant)...I often feel like the Maytag guy. I turnkey a new one..then check with them in 6 months..check again in a year..check again in two years.. they keep running and running and running.
Repair is simple, often can be done by the end user with some phone support, parts are readily available off the shelf of any good electrical house. Ive got a couple hundred of them here in So. Cal..and many are approaching 10s yrs old..and I cant make a living off just servicing them. They are pretty decent machines, particularly for the price. Air powered collet closers, 500 inch/pound servos, 300 IPM rapids (but is deceptive because they can move diagnally not just back and forth, up and down and no turret time..Ive kicked the shit out of Conquests in cycle times) They are not terribly powerful..so will never replace the big 10hp or big geared machines..but in the 5c 1" world..are pretty good machines. Gunner
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around."
"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001
Actually..most OmniTurns are sold by referal.
Bob has 3, his buddy sees em cranking out parts..Bob tells Tom my phone number...
The web site is mostly used for reference
Try the distributors website (of which I wrote some of the FAQs and so forth
Gunner
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around."
"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001
Thanks for the update on how the industry is changing. Glad to hear that we are retaining some manufacturing capability.
Lots of small parts out there that big machines are "overkill" for. Too expensive to buy, maintain, tool, operate, etc.
Back in the early to mid 60s I knew several people at Carter Carburetor in the screw machine departments that ran small Traubs in their garages. [one had one and the other had two] They kludged up a RPC and the wife would check things occasionally and reload stock as required [no automatic bar feed, just a stock tube, but the parts were small and a 12 foot bar/rod would last several hours, and they had a buzzer rigged up in the house that went off when a stock-out occurred] while they were at work. They had set up a couch and TV in their garage, and when I would drop by to visit, they would be doing a little set-up/maintenance or watching TV. Even had dreams of doing this myself at one time.
Are the prices for the small Omnis such that it would be practical for such a family/home operation? I understand that this was the standard production model for the Swiss watch industry years ago, where the farmers and their families would run the Bechlers and Turnos the companies provided in the off season.
Unka George (George McDuffee)
...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, and the epitaph drear: ?A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.?
Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).
I have a goodly number of people running OmniTurns out of their garages in just such a fashion. The OmniTurn has a VFD and is more than able to run on 220 single phase. You need a small air compressor..IRRC...5 CF/Hour for the collet closer and slide brake
Ive got retired Boeing guys doing medical parts, watch guys doing custom watch cases, a couple were doing router bit blanks for B&D until their health went west, in pretty much the same way as you discussed above.
Base price of a retrot on your old machine..usually Hardinge, is about $22k. Enclosed turning center is about $32k IRRC. Add the C axis option for rotory milling, drilling hole patterns and side holes..it goes up to about $39k. Automation is of course..custom. Inexpensive in some types..others ...shrug...
Current pricing ,call me. sample parts, videos etc etc are on the
A poster here just bought a new GT-75 in the last week or so. Also a number of users are on alt.machines.cnc. Feel free to ask about how they like em. Ive sold machines (and serviced them) both new and used to folks on both newsgroups
If you can get the work..you can make money with them. Lots of manufacturing still going on in the US. Most of the bitching you hear about US manufacturing is due to layoffs. Not because the majority of manufacturing has gone to China...because it hasnt. An appreciable fraction has..but the vast majority is still Made in the USA. We just dont do a lot of low end, low tech consumer goods that we did before.
The reason for layoffs in MOST cases, is because the company has updated to the latest greatest CNC equipment, and is even more productive than it was before..with far far less feet on the shop floor. As Ive said several times..the days of having 50 Bridgeports with an operator standing in front of each one, is over. One guy, tending one machine, is outproducing all of those 50 BPs, with better quality parts
Take a look at the OmniTurn example parts page
here is a perfect example
Both parts come off the OmniTurn complete as pictured., Im guessing cycle time for each part to be in the order of 30 seconds to 45 seconds top with a clumsy program. Live tooling on a C axis machine.
How long do you think it would take two guys running lathes and Bridgports to make one of each, even with fixtures?
Try doing this one on any manual or even a cam screw machine...
What do you think manual time to make one of these (comes from extruded stock) on a manual machine?
As I recall..cycle time is less than 1 minute total even when flipping the part over.. End user is T**ex...IRRC. Here in the USA btw. And flipping may not be necessary with some back turning.
Want to make these on a manual machine ?
Try this on a manual machine
Lots of specialty fasteners are made on the Omni...
Getting into that in a big way for the last few years, most important particularly with Just In Time.
If you can find the work..and its out there..and bid it intelligently..I can supply you a machine to make money with.
If you pick up an old Hardinge Chucker..even completly clapped out..and put an attachment on it..its one hell of a machine for a starter. This is the route Id go if I was just starting out and was on a tight budget
I can do nearly any lathe..but the Hardinge lathes are ideal
"OmniTurn offers two types of kits. The pricing structure for the two types are different due to the amount of work needed to complete the retrofit. The manual machines are relativly simple and can be done by the end user or OmniTurn. The fully automatic lathes require additional effort and we suggest that you let us do the installation since we can get it done in a minumum of time at a more efficient price than you could.
Manual lathes:DSM, DSM-R, DV-59,, HC,, J&L, Monarch 10EE
Automatic lathes: AHC, DSMA, ASM, CHNC, HNC, CHNC-ll, CHNC-lll
Feel free to call me directly and we can discuss it in detail
805-732-5308 We can do sample parts, time studies and so forth.Gunner
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around."
"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:25:51 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner quickly quoth:
That Samples page has some neat client-made stuff on it. Tiny, too!
P.S: Please let Omni-turn know that "coarse" doesn't have a "u in it.
Are you doing some of tha automation work, or is that the factory who sets 'em up? If you're doing some, please call Terry. All the factories along Highway 78 are automating and he's swamped.
======================================================== Was that an African +
When it comes to automation..Im pretty inexperienced unfortunately. The folks at Richlin Machinery (east coast distributer) do much of the custom stuff, with the factory doing the Zip loaders and so forth. Richlin is excellent
Dont bother with the west coast distributor.
Gunner .
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're around."
"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001
Thanks Gunner! As usual a terse and to the point response with hard data & real examples.
Pricing indicates that if you can afford a new car/suv that only cost you money, you should be able to afford a machine that will make you money, although banks are generally more willing to lend for consumption than for productive assets. My guess would be that the depreciation for an OmniTurn is *LESS* than the depreciation for an SUV.
Looks like the weak link in the chain is making contact between the owner/operator and customer. This could be a good opportunity for a computer/web/procurment savvey individual, sort of like an Ebay for machining.
Any interest in some sort of work-at-home arrangement, where a company would rent/lease/loan [hire-purchase? lease-with-option?] one or two machines with required accessories [air compressor] to qualified individuals as independent contractors, some what like the Swiss watch parts? It is clear that the current structure and "more of the same only better" business models are not working for most people in the metal trades.
Unka George (George McDuffee)
...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, and the epitaph drear: ?A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.?
Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).
I've heard of "swiss" and "sliding-head swiss" machines, but could you explain what they are, and how they differ from other metalworking machines?
Thanks,
Joe Gwinn
================= I am sure Gunner will give youu more complete information, however see below for a feel of what the new cnc Swiss type machines are about.
see:
Unka George (George McDuffee)
...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, and the epitaph drear: ?A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.?
Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).
Thanks. I'll study these.
Joe Gwinn
Well....very near my house this Jet JMD-18 is available for $1K !!! on Craiglist.
Wheelz
Jim> Try
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