Mill reccomendations for a robotics team?

This is my first post, hopefully I haven't done anything horrible.
I am a highschooler (junior) at the Harker School (San Jose, Bay area, California), part of the robotics team there. We participate in FIRST robotics (www.usfirst.org), every year we build a 120 lb robot out of raw materials and compete against teams nationwide. Up until now, we've relied upon generous machine time donations from machinists in our area, but we would like to do machining in house (for both learning and time purposes, we only have 6 weeks to make our robot, and the lead-times for machinists are long). we've had everything from 6x4 plates with less than a mil of tolerance to 36 inch long tubing with about 10 mils of tolerance.
I'm here to ask you what you all think is a good mill for us to aquire. Space is not a problem, but we only have one-phase power wired to 15 amps. Although perhaps we can get the breaker changed, its unlikely we can get three-phase. Would we have to invest in a VFD? Also, I'd highly appreciate it if anyone could help us with how to find auctions .etc in the area.
Lastly, would a CNC retrofit be as accurate (if not more) than a simple DRO?
Tatsunori Hashimoto, Harker Robotics.

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Nope.
Not easy questions to answer, as there are many possibilities. Used Bridgeport, but they're usually 3 phase, and converter, either solid state or rotary would be required. New, lower cost, KBC tools # VM-22-R8, (kbctools.com) would be a good choice, BUT 220V single phase. Motor could be changed out to 110V, possibly 1 HP without any great loss. Mill drills can do nice work, but depend more on the experience of the one using it than anything else.
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Quick answer, the repeatability of a machine, to make identical parts within tolerances is dependent somewhat on the machine. How accurately a machine can work is dependent on the man running it. I've done some incredibly tight work on a mill drill, but that doesn't mean I want to do it again, only that it can be done. A good CNC retrofit for a mill will include ball screws to replace the lead screws, eliminating backlash. A DRO reads the actual positions of the table, both will reduce the errors caused by not considering backlash. (But so would a handful of simple dial indicators with mag backs on them, it just depends on how much fiddling you want to do before you start cutting.)
A machine that is poorly set up will do only poor work, and who made it, it's condition, will mean nothing. Again, right back to the man that's in front of it. Not having enough time to do it right the first time only means you'll find time to do it over. Cutting corners to save time will only mean doubling the time it takes. Cnc requires that you know the diameter of the cutter as closely as possible, Dro means cut and measure, then take the finish cut. In the end, the results are liable to be identical with one or the other. Cnc can produce complex curved shapes more easily, but that's something that's been done with other methods for over 100 years too. Cnc imposes it's own set of requirements, different from other methods, Other methods have their own set, mostly measure, measure, measure. Getting in a hurry is the mother and father of all screwups.
Rich

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Did you do the work or did the machinists do it for you? When I think back to some of the stuff I managed to do as a kid, nothing would surprise me, but I didn't know what a mill was at that time.
The reason I ask is that machine tools can be extremely(!!!!) dangerous. All readers of your post will want you to go through life with fully functional limbs. You need supervision, and from people who really know their way around machines. Further, I would greatly prefer that the supervisor(s) have experience teaching people to run machines.
> but we would like to do machining in house (for
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A deadline can be a good source of motivation, but it can also lead people to take risks. Be CAREFUL.
> and the lead-times for machinists are long).
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On a 6x4 inch plate, I would try to hold 0.001 in tolerances regardless of the requirements, if only for practice, and because keeping things on size avoids a spiral of corrections for errors in corrections for other errors. A part that is 36 in +/- 0.010 is going to pose an interesting measurement problem - by interesting, I mean it will require some relatively expensive measuring tools. I think I would make the parts adjustable, and then either tweak until it fits/works, or calibrate the machine after assembly.
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CNC adds another level and type of skill: beyond knowing how to run the mill, you will need to know how to program the mill to run itself. Mistakes can lead to dangerous forces on tooling and the work, and the fact that the machine is running itself, it is all the more difficult to detect. Note that I have never used a CNC mill, but I have this from good sources, and it makes sense.
A DRO simplifies some tasks. I have never actually used one. I started on an old Bridgeport mill, disappeared for a while, and am now doing quite a bit of machining in my garage on a mill-drill (a rebranded Rong Fu 31). It has a power feed, but no DRO. The more I work, the less I care to bother with a DRO. I will admit there are times when it would help, but it is no substitute for skill and understanding of machining.
I certainly do not want to discourage you, but if you have the money to get even a mill-drill and tooling, or the money required to get and ship even a used knee mill, then you are obligated to spend it well. I had to deal with lost mail, retailers recovering from two hurricanes, and a less than interested salesman, but it took a few months to select and receive a mill.
IMHO, it is not realisic for you to find, obtain, and learn to use a mill with six weeks to delivery of your product. Once you have a mill, keep in mind that the mill is useless without tooling. Some tooling is very expensive and "permanent" (unless damaged by collision with a cutting tool), other tooling is comsumable. You need an ongoing budget for tooling and maintenance, but you also need to know how to care for the machine.
Most important, you must have skilled supervision. It sounds as though you have engineers working with you. That's good, but many engineers are not machinists. My experience is that most engineers would be helpless in a machine shop. I know some glowing exceptions, and learned a lot from them. BTW, I am an engineer, so I can speak.
Good luck,
Bill

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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What Bill said, and more.
The real value in the donated time you were getting was not the machine but the machinist. The 'lead time' for learning machining is measured in years. Presuming, of course, that you have a qualified instructor to help you keep all your fingers, etc. while you are learning.
That said, it still might be worthwhile to buy or even borrow a benchtop mill/drill for minor quick modifications. You will need a considerable assortment of cutting, fixturing, and measurement tools that will cost more than the mill/drill - the "borrow" option might provide all of those if you are lucky. And you will still need the qualified instructor.
If any machinists local to Tatsunori are listening: you should consider offering your time and equipment to help. I've done this and working with bright, motivated high schoolers is an absolute boatload of fun.
The kids these days are awesome, incredibly more aware and sophisticated than we were at their age. 'Public opinion' tends to be stilted by the press' choice to publicize only the dysfunctional kids. (Imagine that!! The press doing a bad job .... <snort>)

Silly question but there is likely a High School in your area that still has a machine shop and a Machine shop teacher with the tools and experience to help and get you guys started.
REGARDLESS of whether there are competing high schools in your school board cross school assistance when it comes to equipment is done and is reality because the school board owns the capital equipment. (Meaning all the inter school competition really doesnt matter when another school or team needs a hand)
Approaching the teacher to see if you could get some time or assistance from a highschool with a full machine shop would likely get you good results. or the VIce procipal or shop coordinators
Had i heard about FIRST earlier i'd have volunteered some of my time and machines for the idea where i am from.
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Thank you very much for your insightful opinions, I appreciate it.
greybeard -
so would you say it would be easier to do work on a bridgeport rather than a cheap RF-31 milldrill because of the rigidity?
And is a DRO absolutely accurate? (ie reading on DRO always corresponds to table distance..)
We definately understand the need for careful setup; RC, our main machinist, always stressed the importance of setting up the work properly.
Also, how would you cut complex shapes without CNC? with a rotary table?
Bill Schwab -
We've used bandsaw, lathe at RC's shop but not a mill. How much more dangerous would a mill be? (fly cutters do look dangerous..). If we have this at our school, we'll definately have machinist supervision and instruction. I believe we have a few former machinists in faculty..
6x4 1 mil of tolerance is easily doable? or is it a fairly difficult task? I'm trying to gauge the relative difficulty of the work we do.
And as a user of RF-31, do you wish you got a larger mill or one with dovetail ways on the z axis? (we're looking at some benchtop mills.. from RF-31, Sieg X2 clones, X3 clones, and the mill at (www.industrialhobbies.com))
And our build season is already over this year (we shipped our robot on tuesday). I intend to learn how to use a mill (regardless of whether or not we acquire one) over the next year. (any suggestions? I've been thinking about volunteering at a machine shop..)
Thank you for your suggestion about having a machinist supervise us. We have a few machinists on facutly (who arn't being utilized because our school doesnt have a machine shop..)
Fred R-
I'd imagine that it takes many many years to be skilled at milling (our machinist says he's worked for 50 years..)
As for tooling, a graduating member is willing to donate to us R8 collets , vises, indicators and end mills. Of course we'd still have to buy alot of tooling, but I think we can get buy most jobs with end mills and a boring head (of course I could be terribly mistaken.. please correct me if I underestimate this)..
Also, what mill-drill would you reccomend? if its a RF-31, I've always wondered why one wouldn't get the sieg x3 (Grizzly carries it as g046) it has dovetail ways which means you dont loose your position..
Also, what other good ways of learning (for highschoolers..) do you know of?
Brent Philion -
We used to have a highschool next door, (a jewish school) with a machine shop, but we bought the campus and our school sold off the machines. Now I think there isnt a highschool close by with a machine shop (most of the ones I know have closed theirs..)
Thank you very much for your kind assistance
Tatsunori Hashimoto, Harker Robotics

I just realized that I've never mentioned what material we work with.. We use 6061 aluminum for everything. The only steel on our robot is the gears and shafts. So the only real machining of steel we'll do is keyways. Does that change any of your advice? (esp concerning accuracy.. im guessing alu is easier to machine..)
Tatsunori Hashimoto. Harker Robotics

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Hi Tatsunori,
Be sure the school has sufficient personal injury liability insurance, that it has or can obtain competent instructors, that the parents all sign permissions slips, and that your entire class and the instructor follow all the other advice from all these other gentlemen responding to you.
That being said:
I'm window shopping for my own machine, and inexpensive but idiot proof (BUT NOT CHILD SAFE !!!!) choices seem to be offered by MAX NC (http://www.maxnc.com /). If you have a couple thousand to spend, I would recommend that the school buy the MAXNC 10 CL-B.
Essentially, the CNC has already been done for you in a hassle-free manner, and the owner evidently stands by his product. The only problem might be shipping expense, this place is in Chandler, AZ (about 5 miles drive from where I live).
I can afford to talk like a naive idiot (at least in the eyes of some of the people in this group and a lot of others) because not only do I have no pride left, I'm also not afraid to speak up and ask lots of questions just to learn... I've also found a friend who was a CNC mechanic but was laid off, he is willing to be my tutor until he judges me competent. Could be a while (he he).
Good luck,
The Eternal Squire

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With respect, the worst advice I have yet read in this thread.
MaxNC machines are too small and flimbsy to put up with ameteur machinists. CNC is *not* required or recommended(!). A good manual machinist is required to make a good CNC machinist, period.
I would recommend a Bridgeport or knockoff. You'll spend the least amount of time messing around with the machine, they are the most tolerant of mistakes, and they are the most rigid of the mentioned machines (desktop, benchtop, floor).
Personally I like a heavier machine with a more powerful motor and faster spindle for manual aluminum work, but the BPT will be a good match for the type of work being described.
Regards,
Robin

Robin S. wrote:
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With respect, the subtext of the original request is not fully understood by my distinguished colleage somewhere else out there on the Internet.
No matter how well motivated or cautious or intelligent or bright a high school student is, legally and morally that student is still a minor. Special considerations apply.
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The intended operators are not amateurs, they are children. Bridgeports and related machines will almost certainly exercise lethal forces in the event of an accident. While smaller mills can generate lethal forces, due to physics the amount of total momentum applied against any part of a child's anatomy will certainly be less. That increases the chances that the ER team can save the child in time.
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These children do *not* have the time, let alone the attention span, to become good machinists. They best they can do is a 13 week semester (never mind the 6 week deadline) is to develop an appreciation of the basics. A good manual machinst, however, should be required as an instructor, simply for safety reasons.
Probably for legal and liability reasons, the students should not even touch the machine. (Sorry!). A hands off approach would then mandate the use of CNC. The students can develop an understanding of the parts of the milling machine, draft CAD diagrams, download, and run in the presence of the instructor.
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Can you image how high the school board would go ballistic when they hear that you want to reintroduce the machine shop? Selling the idea as a computer controlled demonstration that could fit on a desktop, with live demo at the board meeting, would go a LOT easier with them.
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Save that for college or vocational school.
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Perhaps "special considerations apply" but the size or power of the machine has nothing to do with it.
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Uh, they are amateurs. Call them children to their faces.
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Absolutley wrong. *This* is what's wrong with the internet.
I've run a Taig milling machine (essentially a MaxNC without CNC), Bridgeports, 3 ton horizontals and 30hp CNC machines. My Taig will cut your finger off just as fast as the 50hp CNC machines at work will.
Tell me your experience with milling machines. I'm guessing you haven't run a mill for more than a dozen hours. I've got 5,000 hrs of my tool and die apprenticeship done. I've about 1,000 hrs on bridgeport machines and about 150 hrs manually programming and using CAM software to program CNC mills.
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Then they *certainly* don't have time to become decent CNC machinists. As I said, you have to be good on a manual machinist to perform on a CNC machine, period. Ask me how I know.
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They shouldn't be allowed to walk on the sidewalk or ride in a car either. Very dangerous activities (bridgeport is 1hp, smallest common care engine is about 100hp).
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Bullshit. Will the teacher saw off the stock for them? Put it in the vice and set up the mill? Perhaps program the machine because there's not time to teach the *children* how to do it? I guess we'll just let the students press the green button.
Great learning experience. Indeed you've entirely missed the point of school.
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They can setup their manual mill and crank the handles as well. It's not rocket science and it isn't dangerous when the student has proper training. Many Europeans start their apprenticeships well below 18 years old.
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Great. Buy a machine that DOESN'T have the capacity the students need, requires programming and setup skills they DON'T have and probably costs more than a used knockoff bpt.
Great idea. We need more great ideas like that in industry too.
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There are those who say, and then there are those who go and do (as the sayers watch). The student asked what kind of mill was required for the type of work he is doing. A MaxNC WILL NOT DO THE WORK REQUIRED. That's the bottom line.
Regards,
Robin

Are you talking about the open loop, or the closed loop MaxNC 10? It is true, the open loop is only good for PC boards because of the lack of torque.
I just got off the phone with MaxNC closed loop machine today. I asked a fair number of questions very carefully:
1) How precise? 2) How accurate? 3) How tough? 4) Can I mill PC boards with it? 5) Can I mill aluminum boxes with it? 6) Can I mill small steel parts with it?
With qualifications, all the answers are yes for the NC10 closed loop.
The technician told me that with the closed loop the precision and accuracy are both approximately the same, zero dot 2 thousanths of an inch. The closed loop can exercise about 8 times the force as the open loop, and one of the customers is milling mini turbine blades from hardened specialty steel for a model jet engine.
And from the way he talks he is hardly a jumped up Walmart hardware store salesman.
Those who do are called artisans Those who say are called researchers. One can't exist without the other.
Regards,
The Eternal Squire

Thank you very much for your all's time.
As for MaxNC, that's out of the question for us since we'll end up frequently manufacturing parts greater than the 12 inch travel. For the safety question, we've gotten a ok for a manual mill as long as there is a machinist watching over, and there is restricted access (to ensure some of the more careless members dont play with it like a toy). We've also been fairly careful with our handeling with machine tools and even though it is a risk, we think its one worth taking (for the things learnt).
" Truly +/-.001" on a bridgeport is pretty tight, but certainly attainable. What kind of work are you doing that requires such a tolerance? " We manufacture our own high-speed gearboxes whose mounting plates require about 1/1000th tolerance. we've previously found that even 1/1000th off can cause the motor to bind and start flipping the breakers, or cause unacceptable current draw.
As for the mill, we are in fact located in California (bay area, however.) , so we are highly interested in Gunner's offer of a Shizuka CNC mill. If that is not possible, we can of course, go for a bridgeport, or we've also been looking for something like http://www.industrialhobbies.com/ the square column mill. The work envelope is more than adequate, it seems to have a strong enough motor for our work, and the spindle speed seems okay for aluminum work. the Free shipping also makes it very attractive for us.
Tatsunori Hashimoto

As this was Tatsu's first, this is also my first post. Who knows, I might get this right.
Anyway, I am student mentor for Tatsu's team at the Harker School. I have had a good bit of machine tool use, and could say I am decently proficient with manual and cnc mills. The robotics team is looking to get about a bridgeport sized mill, but not a full knee mill. The one that Tatsu posted a link to, from industrial hobbies, is a chinese import mill with a decently sized travel (12x30x 24 vertical) and R8 taper, with a 2 hp single phase motor. This mill basically fits into all of our requirements, and is what we are seriously considering getting.
Gunner, thank you for your offer. We will have to see with the school if it is at all possible to house something like a full-size knee mill (I am guessing it is the size of a normal bridgeport).
I agree with all of you who say that a student that doesnt know how to manually mill doesnt know how to CNC. I learned the hard way first, on a 1967 bridgeport with no DRO. I have gradually worked up from then... but I do believe that a high school junior or senior could be taught to mill decently in three months. The kids at Harker are bright, I have seen several outstanding examples. Of course, not everyone would be even allowed to touch a mill, as Tatsu said.
We plan on having a mill, 3 axis DRO, milling vice, clamp set with t-nuts and studs, rotary table, boring head, indicators and edgefinders, end mills, full tap die and drill sets, mill vice parallel bars, a nice keyless chuck, center drills, calipers and mics, carbide insert face cutter, some reamers, and I am probably forgetting something. Anything else we might want to get?
Currently my main concern is getting a DRO without selling an arm and a leg. Would anyone have suggestions on DROs and where to get them?
Thanks, Veselin Kolev

On 27 Feb 2006 21:46:20 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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The foot print is about half again as large..is much much more rigid and much heavier than a BP.
http://www.beamonoregon.com/img/shizuokadyn.jpg
http://www.precisesensors.com /
Ask for the shop manager..tell him you were refered by Gunner, the OmniTurn service guy..the big ol ugly cowboy.
Be nice..they pay me on time <G>
Gunner
"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...
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Has not been touched on yet, but do you have access to a lathe?
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If you are not interested in sub-tenths accuracy you could consider a DRO from Shooting Star Technologies.
I think that Robin's given some pretty good comments here.
Jim

Mr Robin - I guess my meaning was whether or not this cnc machine could still use the handles, I guess the answer is no. Although I feel very comfortable with CAD and programming, I'd still think that learning to code for cnc and learning to mill at the same time would be an unnecessary burden.
However, isn't there a way to use a handheld pendent type control to move the mill "manually" as if one was operating a power-feed machine?
Mr Rozen - We have access to a lathe (ie our machinist has one) but we dont own a lathe. We don't have the resources to buy both lathe, mill and their tooling (I dont think..) so although I know some would disagree, we're starting with a mill.
Also, we've considered the shooting star DRO and it looks to be very nice, however, we are currently considering a mill that has 20 inch of Z travel (travels are 30 1/8 , 12, 23.15 ) the shooting star DRO wont cover our Z travel... AND its also nontrivially expensive (at $749, we could get a small lathe). How does the accuracy compare on the Shumatech DRO with chinese scales attached? we're not likely flood cooling so fluid resistance is not that big of a concern
Tatsunori Hashimoto

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The pendant basically allows the user to "jog" the machine manually. Essentially used only for setups. I have seen some seasoned machinists at work use the jog functions (with the little thumbwheel) to machine parts. The problem is that the wheel does not have precise control over the machine. There are lags and jumps where your feed is either too small or too large (50hp, 50000 lb machine rattles the floor in a 20ft radius) as the machine control tries to keep up with the thumbwheel and also accelerate/decelerate the machine to the correct position.
The bottom line is that you will be disappointed trying to run a machine with the pendant. If you're going to buy a CNC mill (in my opinion a mistake given the work and the environment to which it will be subject), you will need to learn g-code to write programs, and you will have to learn how to operate the control (setting up and running tools, programs, work pieces, etc.)
I'm fairly certain a manual Bridgeport (or knockoff) will machine everything you robots require, and you'll be able to make actual parts much faster with less learning and less frustration.
Unfortunately the only way you'll understand my perspective is to actually learn how to cut metal, and then learn how to use a CNC machine. I've done both. I've done more than a thousand hours on a manual mill and over a hundred hours doing setup, programming and machining on a CNC mill. Not a lot compared to many here, but enough to know that a student without much experience who is under a deadline doesn't want to fight with a CNC control to make a robot.
YMMV.
Regards,
Robin

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...
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It's not a bad choice, given that you have access to one elsewhere. You can perform lathe operations in a milling machine, which is actually easier and more effective than the reverse.
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The Shooting Star instrument uses a piece of precision threaded rod as the spar, with a shaft encoder geared to run along the length. You can pretty much get whatever length of threaded rod you want. I suspect that setup is +/- 0.001 inch at best, so you can learn what you need to compare the two by simply inspecting the web pages for each to see the specs. If you want to cut costs, do not buy a three axis DRO, only do the X and Y axis.
Do not buy a lathe that costs 750 dollars. That would really be a mistake.
Jim

jim rozen wrote:
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Well do not buy a brand new lathe for $750.00 . For students you might well find some kind business with an eye to the future willing to put you into a used one for that price . There are a lot of business people that are in a position and willing to help students out . Luck Ken Cutt