A while back I posted a thread about fillet welding. Having followed people's suggestions about technique (Roy, Grant, Randy, Don and a few others) I found I was getting neat but weak welds. Gunner suggested using 6011 electrodes instead of 6013. After much searching I tracked down an 11 lb box of 1/8" 6011. No one seems to stock it in this area, which was no doubt how I ended up with 6013. The place I got my welder from only keeps 6013. The place where I found some just had one box in stock, which I bought.
Soon afterwards I was helping a friend build a large crossbow. He wanted a ring welding to a piece of flat bar to create an anchor point. Tried with 6013. Useless: one big slag inclusion with a little metal deposited down each side. I guess there is a lot of opportunity for a slag inclusion here as there's a deep crevice where the round section rests against the flat bar. So I got out the 6011. Got the job done nicely, but striking the arc seemed hard. Here's a picture of the ring:
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Last night I had chance to experiment properly with the 6011. It was a bitterly cold night here in England! I put the heater on, but had to keep the shed door open to let the fumes escape. I noticed it said "AC min. 70 V" on the box. I was running on 50 V before, so I switched over to 80 V. No problem striking the arc now. I welded some fillets on 1/8" mild steel, starting at 120 A. On the 50 V setting 115 A was a little low, and 145 A too high. Now here's something I don't understand. If I switch from 50 V to 80 V, but keep the same current setting, does the arc dissipate 8/5 as much power? Or does the voltage across the arc drop to a similar value in both cases (perhaps 25 V) as soon as the arc is struck? I believe my welding set uses a tapped inductor to control current. But I'm not familiar with the electrical characteristics of the welding arc, so I haven't yet figured out how it works. If anyone knows of a site which explains how welding current controllers work, or is willing to explain, I'd be most interested to know.
120 A seemed a bit hot. It caused small undercuts and large areas of the metal were red hot after welding. Also, the tip of the electrode was glowing red when I lifted the mask. I remember someone (perhaps Roy) saying that this is a clear sign that you're using too much current, so I turned it down. 110 A still seemed a bit hot, but 100 A perfect. 90 A was too low. I used maybe 10 or 12 rods practising at 100 A. I had no problems with slag inclusions, and could lay a reasonably neat bead. But I couldn't get as neat a bead as I could with 6013. I've read that this is a characteristic of the rod. Is this true? I found restarts somewhat harder than I did using 6013. The arc seemer brighter and the rate of deposition faster, so I found it hard to see the solidified weld pool. They weren't too messy, though. Here's a picture of one of my fillets:
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I also tried the drag rod technique with 6011. It didn't work at all. The bead was rough, the rod stuck, and the weld metal ended up on one side. I also noticed this weird jet of flame emerging between the rod and the deposited metal. I assume 6011 just isn't meant for the drag rod technique. Next I made a 2" long test piece and attempted to break it. Here's a picture of the piece:
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I bent it back and forth using a mole wrench (vise grips) and counted the number of complete cycles of bending required to break it. It took four complete cycles and the parent metal broke rather than the weld. This is fewer cycles that it took with some of my earlier test pieces, but I think the amplitude of bending was greater, so fatigue probably set in earlier. I was pretty happy because the weld proved stronger than the parent metal. 6011 does appear to give a much stronger weld than
6013, even if it looks uglier. Here's a picture of the broken test piece:
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I've wondered recently if I need another welder. At 50 V (AC) my welder offers the following current settings: 65, 90, 115, 145, 165, 180 A. At
80 V (AC) it offers 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120 A. I've been finding that the current control on the 50 V range is a bit coarse. I didn't used to find this, but maybe I'm noticing it because I'm getting better at welding. Soon I'm going to be using 1/4" mild steel (both plate and sections) for a project. If I weld using 6011 at 80 V, do you think 120 A is enough? I'm guessing that it is if I grind a chamfer on the edges, but I'm not sure. Any thoughts?
The lower voltage tap can deliver higher current, as you note. But it is then less of a "constant current" machine, and it has less open-circuit voltage. Once an arc is struck with a given size and type of electrode, the arc determines the voltage for a given current. 6013 and 7014 are "drag rods" and are easy to strike.
6011 is *not* a drag rod and is less easy to strike, so higher open-circuit voltage helps. Higher OCV at given current may also help with 6013 because of the better constant-current characteristic your welder will exhibit in that setting.
Yes. It isn't as "pretty" a rod as 6013 and 7014.
Yes.
Not bad at all!
Whatever. Point is, the failure happen in the metal, not at the weld.
6013 and 7014 can also make strong welds in 1/8", though they run differently. It's a matter of watching and controlling the puddle.
That could very well be. I bet you'd like a 40 to 225 amp buzzbox with continuous current control. There is no voltage setting on those; they're always 80 volts or so OCV. I had some 6011 when I had such a buzzbox, but I very rarely used it except on really crusty rusty metal. I could weld everthing I wanted to weld, up to 1/4" and even 3/8", with 6013. I often ran 7014 on 1/8" and thinner. The trick is to push the puddle into the joint since those rods have such fluid puddles. 6011 blasts it in, which is why it doesn't make such pretty welds.
The "right" current is determined mostly by rod diameter. You should have no problem doing 1/4" with 1/8" 6011 running at whatever current it runs well at for you. 120 amps is certainly in the ball park. In fact, it's about in the middle of the ballpark for 1/8" sticks.
I might try some 7014 if I can persuade the welding store to order it! Is it much different from 6013? I find the slag inclusions are the problem with 6013. With a fillet 6013 doesn't seem to clear the slag from the root of the weld, and this is where the fracture starts when I bend a sample back and forth. Here's a picture of what happened to the
6013 sample:
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Perhaps I need to get the arc shorter and the puddle smaller in order to push the puddle right into the corner? I tried this with 6013 but couldn't get the puddle smaller than about 1/4" across without using the drag rod technique. The drag rod fillets using 6013 were stronger than the parent metal, though. Am I right in thinking that 6013 produces a softer deposit than 6011, whatever the technique?
I've stayed away from buzzboxes in the past because my metalworking activities are a bit sporadic. I'll do a lot at once, then get busy with something else and my welder will sit idle for months in the damp shed! I'd worry about an air cooled buzzbox suffering, but my oil cooled set seems fine. Just switch it on and go, which I like. A reputable local dealer has a large GEC oil cooled set available, which I've had my eye on. I only have sketchy details at the moment - would want to check the possible input and output voltages, and probably try it out - but it has
49 current settings (two controllers) giving an output from 21 to 425 A. 350 A continuous. A bit of a beast...might have to upgrade the power supply for that one!
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
Not bad..still running a bit too much heat though, and I think you are running a bit too fast in travel. 6011 isnt beauty rod, but it does burn deep, even with rusty stuff.
drag rod? You are putting the rod into the center of the joint, holding it at a 45 degree angle from verticle, with a slight rearwards angle? Try the front to back..advance, retreat, advance, retreat, with the rod nearly perpendicular to the material. Cant say if this is the proper way..but works for me..for me..with 6011. Pretty well in fact. You may have to favor the upright piece more, and let the metal melt down into the joint...say half a rod diameter higher than center of the v. This of course with AC. DC is its own bag of worms..with arc blow being an issue.
Good deal. You are using too much rod though, making what we call a gorilla weld. Thats a mighty big fillet, based on the scale of your hand and so forth. Im told..and Im hardly and expert..perish the thought, that the fillet should be the thickness of your base metal, in cross section.
I think 120 amps with 1/8" 6011, is going to be way too hot for 1/4". I normally run it between 60 and 80 amps for that thickness..usually at the 80 amp end. My fillet will be about 1/4" deep if I slather it on, 3/16" deep (depth of the V) if I take care and drop to about 75 amps, and dont dawdle.
I cross posted your post to sci.engr.joining.welding and Im sure we shall see some feedback on it shortly. Some incredible welders over there. Even some in the UK.
It would be interesting, if you could find a welder, offer him a few pints to come over and run some welds with your machine, and find out if its a machine or a techique related issue. I did that myself, and it was me, not the machine. Id been used to welding on another lesser quality machine, and I was subconsiously using techniques Id cobbled together out of my ass, that I needed with the crappy machine..that were over the top with the good one Id just gotten.
Fortunately for me..Im in a welders area..oil fields..so they are on every street corner..so to speak lol.
My gut feeling, is that you are trying to heat up too much real estate, not keeping your rod nearly submerged in the puddle and are trying to run too fast, which means you have to up the heat more than you should, which heats up everything to a nice red glow...
And its one of the most common beginners issues. I fought it for years with myself, until it finally clicked, even after having real welders show me what I was doing wrong.
But then..Im not a welder, only a dauber. Im sure others will tell us both the proper way.
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 03:18:13 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy wrote:
All correct. 6013 cools slower so the deposit tends to be softer.
And to keep from posting to another portion of this thread I'll put some answers in this one.
100 amps is about right for 1/8" 6011. It tends to burn hotter so you need less amperage when compared to other rods. You can vary this up and down a little based on metal thickness but as you found there's not a whole lot of room to play.
As Don explained the 50 and 80V setting primarily apply to the open circuit voltage of the machine. Once welding the voltage is primarily controlled by the length of the arc. Proper arc length is automatically going to bring the voltage down to around 20-30 volts. The longer the arc the higher the voltage needed to jump it. A shorter arc needs less voltage to keep going. Thus in stick welding pushing the rod into the work tends to make it run cooler while pulling the rod away runs hotter (kind of counter intuitive to many people). This is the technique you need to get down to compensate for the stepped amperage control of your welder. With a welder like the fine control is all in arc length. I welded for many years with a machine like that with good results. It's just easier with a industrial machine like I have now. This really shows up in the low amperage work. My Hobart CyberTIG is the easiest welder I've ever used for low amperage work. Last night I had a friend over helping his friend build a bumper. He was welding some pretty large gaps in the badly fitted pipe joints. I had him using 3/32 6011 for the root pass to get everything put together so that I could later go over everything with 1/8" 7018 for a good looking weld. Now while my friend has welded some for a long time he's far from a professional welder. Gorilla welding best describes his efforts. But when he complained of having trouble filling the gaps I turned the welder down to the point that it was only putting out 40 amps. He had not trouble at all striking and maintaining the arc at that setting. I know for the fact that it was a exercised in frustration for me to try and weld at 40 amps with my old cracker box like that. I also have trouble with my other industrial welder at that kind of amperage. Primarily with striking the arc. That welder really likes to make it stick permanently when striking such a small rod. Plus when it sticks it takes all of 1/2 second for it to turn the rod into a glowing piece of wet noodle (that what I get for using a 500 amp capable welder for small rods :-).
All good wisdom here! I just question the need for the 6011. I use it for the needed strength sometimes or for vertical or overhead work but why didn't the 6013 work on the ring? Is it because I haven't ever used an AC welder? The only other thing I wonder about is if the steel ring and strip were of very dissimilar steels. I also think 3/32" rods are easier to learn with.
I've posted before on 6010/6011 and have a web-site with welding comment. Bit steam-engine like compared to current technology, but grabbed by this process since tried it after hearing of it.
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And search the s.e.j.w. newsgroup. Try at Google
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Comments > >
Yup - most 6013drop a lot of slag. Not much good for short welds in awkward locations. They are not awkward with a 6010 or 6011, where most of the flux covering goes to gas and the arc is directional and penetrative.
125A is the max. for 3.2mm (1/8th inch) 6011 rods. Mustn't degrade the cellulose by Ohmically (resistance) heating the rod.
140A is max for same sized rods in rutile (6013).
Using 6011 and feeling really psychopathic, dip in water then exceed the recommended current a bit. The water makes the arc more fierce and keeps the rod cool, both making for a fiercely penetrating arc.
Yes, you've got it. Voltage across the arc is a characteristic of the rod, not the welding machine, for a given amperage setting.
Surprised rod was overheated on 120A. When break arc and flip up visor, should see little flame from end of 6010 or 6011 rod for a second or so. But rod should otherwise be cool.
100A would be alright, if it works for you.
Dragging the rod is for root-running a butt weld with a V-preparation. Dragging gives a very misshaped weld bead. On root run, the advantages of gettign a full-pen. weld with neat underbead vastly overweight and you accept the price of having to grind off the raised top-bead, grinding out the "wagon-track" slag traps down by its vertical sides.
For fillet and all others, you want open arc. There is no tradition of this in UK, but seems is wideely used in North America. You can get pretty neat fillet welds by slightly oscillating the rod backwards and forward by about a rod core diameter (1/8th inch in you case. Practice of a straight peice of metal until you can get a flat bead with no undercut, but keeping good penetration.
Normally you "nick-break" - you saw a notch in the top surface of the weld bead so that the break is made to occur across and into the weld root. Then you look for penetration.
The problem with your test is that you could always make the parent metal break by over-filling the weld into a great big blob. That would never break. But is would be a discontinuity in the component shape and a concentrator of fatigue. Not good. So nick-break to see is penetrated on underside of weld and visual inspect for good top shape - a small but minimal fill above plate profile.
Sounds like you have a Oxford oil-cooled arc welder, judging from your "50V or 80V open-circuit" anbd the current taps. These are AC machines, so cannot be used for some rods. However, there are rods to cover every situation, so you are well OK. BTW - 6011's crackle at mains frequency on AC, compared to a smooth hiss on DC. Makes no difference. 6013 rutiles hiss on both AC and DC.
Oxford arc welders are superb. They cost twice as much as a contemporary inverter welding machine, which is inherently DC welding. The handling of the arc and welding is lovely. With a well-behaved machine you can bring on your technique well.
6011 is a fast-freeze rod for all position welding. It handles dirty metal better than other rods. Very popular on the farm. 6013 sets up slower, but, as you noted, makes a smoother bead due to a slower freezing puddle. They both have their uses. Bugs
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 03:18:13 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
It seems odd that you're having to special order rods that to us seem very common. You might ask the shop what they sell a lot of and then post that information to the group to see if any of them are good choices for you rather than having to special order rods. It may be that most welders in your area are using 70xx rods rather than the lower tensile 60xx rods.
RWL
******* Recreate gaps in email address to reply *******
Thanks for the wealth of suggestions. I'll offer responses to your comments individually.
Gunner: That photograph is a bit misleading I think. The weld is very close to the camera, plus I don't have enormous hands. I've just measured the leg length of the fillet in that picture and it's 1/4". The weld pool is therefore a little over 1/4" in diameter. On other samples I measured the length of deposited bead compared to the length of rod consumed. I am pretty consistently depositing 5 1/2" of fillet for every
11" of rod consumed. When I try to get the weld pool much smaller than
1/4" diameter I find that the bead becomes uneven and looks rather like fish scales. Were you suggesting that 6011 should work as a drag rod? The welds I photographed were not done using the "drag rod" technique and 6011 rod - those were a disaster. Most of the welders I know locally are hobby welders like me. I did know a guy who was a pro, but he had a lot of family problems and I lost touch with him. If I meet a pro I might well do as you suggest.
Wayne: What you say about a shorter arc reducing the power output makes sense. I figured this out for myself at one point in the past, but wasn't sure whether or not to believe it because, as you say, it's rather counter-intuitive. I'll practise working with a short arc. At the moment my arc is about the same as the rod diameter (1/8"). I find if I make it much smaller than this I struggle to see what's going on in the weld pool.
Tom: I'm pretty sure the ring and strip were both mild steel of a similar composition. I think the quantity of slag and low penetration of
6013 just allowed the crevice to fill with slag. That's the way it seemed. I'll try to get some 3/32" 6011 rods. Welding a fillet with 1/8" I find it hard to get a weld pool smaller than 1/4" across. At the moment I have 1/16", 5/64" and 1/8" in 6013 and 1/8" in 6011. I couldn't weld that ring with 5/64" 6013, but was fine with 1/8" 6011.
Richard: Thanks for all the advice and links to your website. You mention that dragging is for root-running a butt weld with a V-preparation. Something I want to do soon is make a box from 1/4" plate. This is an electrical enclosure, but is load bearing too. I don't want to use intermittent welds as I want the enclosure to be sealed from moisture, plus I want it to look neat. Do you think that if I grind a V at every joint, I could drag a rod using the V as a guide in order to produce a narrow, neat bead? My welder is a Cytringan (180 A @ 50 V, 120 A @ 80 V), which is very similar to an Oxford. From the opinions expressed here it looks like it will be fine for welding 1/4" mild steel, and that with experience the coarse current control won't prove to be a problem.
RWL: The lack of availability of rods is strange. The place I got my welder from only keeps 6013. They have it in a variety of diameters, but that's all they keep. They do seem to be specialising in MIG now as there are a lot of automotive and auto-related businesses in the area. Another place down the road keeps 6010, 6013 and some 70xx series rods, although I didn't inspect those closely. I bought the one box of 6011 they had.
I can't help but wonder if the difference is more how rod in the UK is marked and known. Could be that what we call 6011 is something else to them, but the same rod?
Hummm..I wonder if there is some special "educational" rate by which we could all send Chris some samples of the various rods we have. I think I alone have 9 different types.
Im not sure what 10lbs of rod shipped to old blimey would cost.
Anybody know? Id donate 10 lbs of rod, single or assorted if it werent too expesnsive
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
Thanks for the kind offer, Gunner. I just looked at the USPS website and the cheapest option for an 11 lb package is $34.45 by surface mail. Ouch. Pretty expensive! I think my best bet is to have a chat to the guy at the better of our two local welding stores. Most of the stuff I weld is 1/8" to 1/4" mild steel. Currently I have 1/16", 5/64" and 1/8" in
6013 and 1/8" in 6011. Is there anything else I should definitely try? I'd rather stay away from weird rods which need sealed cans and rod ovens - I keep my 6011 and 6013 in the house, and that seems fine.
Postage is pricey but we could courier a bit of welding rod along with Fritoes, cornmeal, red licorice, more quilted dribblebibs and other essential survival rations not available in the UK via the Nana Mary Smuggling Service. Shipping would be to Mnpls, and thence from London to Chris.
Too late for imminent trip, though, and I expect Chris will find what he needs in the UK.
No red licorice in the UK???????? No 2 lb bags of Twizzlers Red Licorice??????
The horror...the horror.....
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
A good welding supply store in the UK will have all the different electrodes.
There are some 7018's (basics) for AC. That would be interesting for you to try.
In a house, all rods will store reasonably. Cellulosic (6010 or 6011) might get a bit dry. Basics (7018 (also 7015 and 7016 but you never meet those)) will pick up moisture, but not as much as matters welding mild steel in smaller thicknesses (less than 6mm / 1/4inch) (???).
7018's come these days in shrink-wrap plastic.
Cellulosics come in a tin to keep the moisture *IN*. But in colleges they are left in the open in the dry centrally-heated atmosphere and still work fine. You do know if a cellulosic is too dry. The arc goes "flat", lacking "bite" or directionality. Well, I reckon that. So you "re-moisturise" a bit in that case...
Also - don't try to dry 6013's in an oven - they rely on moisture for shielding.
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