WIDGET help

I am building a widget consisting of a 5.5 h.p. lawnmower engine in the center of a 36" x 12" x 3/8" aluminum plate.
On either end are a 3 kw.120 v.a.c. generator and a Leece-Neville 140 amp. 14 volt alternator.
This contraption will be driven by b-sized, v belts. What I wish is to have the ability to drive both simultaneously or each independently.
So, is it practical to engage the one that I want to drive with an idler pulley and on the UN-driven one release the tension on its idler pulley?
What I am asking is that is it practical to have a v belt that is not being used, to just be very loose in the pulley grooves while not being used?
Thanks
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How about if you rearrange things such that the motor is on one side and on the other side is a plate that you can take loose and rotate. To swap from generator to alternator you'd then take the plate loose, then rotate the plate 180 (the driven pulley would go towards the motor so you could easily remove the belt) then reconnect the belt to the pulley on the alternator and snug down the plate. I saw an idea like this once in a Popular Mechanics. I don't like having a belt in place but not running, though. Rotating belts can be more dangerous than you think. - GWE
snipped-for-privacy@widget.com wrote:

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Too late for that, Grant. It is already built. Both driven devices are on-line all of the time. I just want to be able to quickly take one device off-line while the other is still working or, shut the unit down and then loosen the belt on the unnecessary generator.
I don't like the idea either but if no real gotchas, I will implement it. I am not too worried about belt wear or danger as it will be started and left alone until not needed.
Seems like I have seen this idea on tillers, go carts and other machines.
Btw, this is a portable unit.
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 11:23:49 -0700, Grant Erwin
Quoted: How about if you rearrange things such that the motor is on one side Quoted: and on the other side is a plate that you can take loose and rotate. Quoted: To swap from generator to alternator you'd then take the plate loose, Quoted: then rotate the plate 180 (the driven pulley would go towards the motor Quoted: so you could easily remove the belt) then reconnect the belt to the pulley Quoted: on the alternator and snug down the plate. I saw an idea like this once in Quoted: a Popular Mechanics. I don't like having a belt in place but not running, Quoted: though. Rotating belts can be more dangerous than you think. - GWE Quoted: Quoted: snipped-for-privacy@widget.com wrote: Quoted: Quoted: > I am building a widget consisting of a 5.5 h.p. lawnmower engine Quoted: > in the center of a 36" x 12" x 3/8" aluminum plate. Quoted: > On either end are a 3 kw.120 v.a.c. generator Quoted: > and a Leece-Neville 140 amp. 14 volt alternator. Quoted: > Quoted: > This contraption will be driven by b-sized, v belts. Quoted: > What I wish is to have the ability to drive both Quoted: > simultaneously or each independently. Quoted: > Quoted: > So, is it practical to engage the one that I want to drive Quoted: > with an idler pulley and on the UN-driven one release the Quoted: > tension on its idler pulley? Quoted: > Quoted: > What I am asking is that is it practical to have a v belt Quoted: > that is not being used, to just be very loose in the pulley Quoted: > grooves while not being used?
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snipped-for-privacy@widget.com wrote:

The slickest way to do it would be with a couple of electric clutches salvaged off of automobile AC compressors and mounted on the two driven devices....just a thought
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I like your idea, Bob. I had thought of it, too. However, there are several problems:
1. Weight - this is a portable unit and besides the weight of the clutches, there would have to be a battery - additional weight.
2. This will be an emergency unit and has to start without a battery that may be dead when needed.
3. Eventually, I may put an electric start option on it and that, of course, would require a battery with it's weight and the weight of the starter. In addition to the clutches, it would be too heavy. Still, the unit would need to able to be started in the event the battery is dead.
Thanks for your input.
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:34:15 -0500, Bob Robinson
Quoted: snipped-for-privacy@widget.com wrote: Quoted: > Too late for that, Grant. It is already built. Both driven devices Quoted: > are on-line all of the time. I just want to be able to quickly take Quoted: > one device off-line while the other is still working or, shut the unit Quoted: > down and then loosen the belt on the unnecessary generator. Quoted: > Quoted: > I don't like the idea either but if no real gotchas, I will implement Quoted: > it. I am not too worried about belt wear or danger as it will be Quoted: > started and left alone until not needed. Quoted: > Quoted: > Seems like I have seen this idea on tillers, go carts and other Quoted: > machines. Quoted: > Quoted: > Btw, this is a portable unit. Quoted: > Quoted: > On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 11:23:49 -0700, Grant Erwin
Quoted: > Quoted: > Quoted: How about if you rearrange things such that the motor is on Quoted: > one side Quoted: > Quoted: and on the other side is a plate that you can take loose and Quoted: > rotate. Quoted: > Quoted: To swap from generator to alternator you'd then take the plate Quoted: > loose, Quoted: > Quoted: then rotate the plate 180 (the driven pulley would go towards Quoted: > the motor Quoted: > Quoted: so you could easily remove the belt) then reconnect the belt Quoted: > to the pulley Quoted: > Quoted: on the alternator and snug down the plate. I saw an idea like Quoted: > this once in Quoted: > Quoted: a Popular Mechanics. I don't like having a belt in place but Quoted: > not running, Quoted: > Quoted: though. Rotating belts can be more dangerous than you think. - Quoted: > GWE Quoted: > Quoted: Quoted: > Quoted: snipped-for-privacy@widget.com wrote: Quoted: > Quoted: Quoted: > Quoted: > I am building a widget consisting of a 5.5 h.p. lawnmower Quoted: > engine Quoted: > Quoted: > in the center of a 36" x 12" x 3/8" aluminum plate. Quoted: > Quoted: > On either end are a 3 kw.120 v.a.c. generator Quoted: > Quoted: > and a Leece-Neville 140 amp. 14 volt alternator. Quoted: > Quoted: > Quoted: > Quoted: > This contraption will be driven by b-sized, v belts. Quoted: > Quoted: > What I wish is to have the ability to drive both Quoted: > Quoted: > simultaneously or each independently. Quoted: > Quoted: > Quoted: > Quoted: > So, is it practical to engage the one that I want to drive Quoted: > Quoted: > with an idler pulley and on the UN-driven one release the Quoted: > Quoted: > tension on its idler pulley? Quoted: > Quoted: > Quoted: > Quoted: > What I am asking is that is it practical to have a v belt Quoted: > Quoted: > that is not being used, to just be very loose in the pulley Quoted: > Quoted: > grooves while not being used? Quoted: > Quoted: The slickest way to do it would be with a couple of electric clutches Quoted: salvaged off of automobile AC compressors and mounted on the two driven Quoted: devices....just a thought
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How about a single belt that can be swapped quickly from one accessory to the other. You could put a tensioning device (spring-loaded pulley) on each side.
Release the tension, swap belt, retension, etc.
Have a good one, tHAT
wrote:

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    Two requests, please:
1)    Please trim the quoted material if you *must* top-post.
2)    Please go to the more normal quoting string of "> " at the left     margin, instead of "Quoted: ", which grows the line length far     too much with even *one* level of quoting, let alone with two or     more.

    [ ... ]

    Note how often this has forced folding the lines, and sometimes even added a level of "Quoted: " in front of the previous level of folding? It *really* makes the quoted text harder to read.
    Thank you,         DoN.
--
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As far as running both at once, use a double slot drive pulley with the accessory pulleys at staggered lengths. then just throw on the extra belt when needed. I have a similar arrangement on an air compressor but one compressor with a gas engine on one side and an electric motor on the other. The only difference is I never need to operate both drives at once but I could I wanted to.
Later, tHAT
wrote:

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Also, Grant, I want to be able to run them simultaneously, should I choose.
Yours is a good idea, though.
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 11:23:49 -0700, Grant Erwin
Quoted: How about if you rearrange things such that the motor is on one side Quoted: and on the other side is a plate that you can take loose and rotate. Quoted: To swap from generator to alternator you'd then take the plate loose, Quoted: then rotate the plate 180 (the driven pulley would go towards the motor Quoted: so you could easily remove the belt) then reconnect the belt to the pulley Quoted: on the alternator and snug down the plate. I saw an idea like this once in Quoted: a Popular Mechanics. I don't like having a belt in place but not running, Quoted: though. Rotating belts can be more dangerous than you think. - GWE Quoted: Quoted: snipped-for-privacy@widget.com wrote: Quoted: Quoted: > I am building a widget consisting of a 5.5 h.p. lawnmower engine Quoted: > in the center of a 36" x 12" x 3/8" aluminum plate. Quoted: > On either end are a 3 kw.120 v.a.c. generator Quoted: > and a Leece-Neville 140 amp. 14 volt alternator. Quoted: > Quoted: > This contraption will be driven by b-sized, v belts. Quoted: > What I wish is to have the ability to drive both Quoted: > simultaneously or each independently. Quoted: > Quoted: > So, is it practical to engage the one that I want to drive Quoted: > with an idler pulley and on the UN-driven one release the Quoted: > tension on its idler pulley? Quoted: > Quoted: > What I am asking is that is it practical to have a v belt Quoted: > that is not being used, to just be very loose in the pulley Quoted: > grooves while not being used?
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On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:13:43 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@widget.com calmly ranted:

Then the sliding gensets or electric clutches seem better for your application, Allen.

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snipped-for-privacy@widget.com wrote:

Lawnmowers certainly do this. The PTO "clutch" on my Bolens works this way. They have two sheaves, on on the engine, one on the PTO shaft, and a tension roller that runs against the back of the belt to engage it.
It may take some amount of fiddling around to keep the belt from occasionally jumping off the pulleys.
Jon
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That is what I currently have, a tension roller on both devices. There is nothing wrong with running both at the same time except for being a waste if I am not using both.
I will go ahead and configure the tensioners on a pivot point and rest easy.
Thanks for your comments.
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:27:15 -0500, Jon Elson
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: snipped-for-privacy@widget.com wrote: Quoted: Quoted: >I am building a widget consisting of a 5.5 h.p. lawnmower engine Quoted: >in the center of a 36" x 12" x 3/8" aluminum plate. Quoted: >On either end are a 3 kw.120 v.a.c. generator Quoted: >and a Leece-Neville 140 amp. 14 volt alternator. Quoted: > Quoted: >This contraption will be driven by b-sized, v belts. Quoted: >What I wish is to have the ability to drive both Quoted: >simultaneously or each independently. Quoted: > Quoted: >So, is it practical to engage the one that I want to drive Quoted: >with an idler pulley and on the UN-driven one release the Quoted: >tension on its idler pulley? Quoted: > Quoted: >What I am asking is that is it practical to have a v belt Quoted: >that is not being used, to just be very loose in the pulley Quoted: >grooves while not being used? Quoted: > Quoted: > Quoted: Lawnmowers certainly do this. The PTO "clutch" on my Quoted: Bolens works this way. They have two sheaves, on on the engine, Quoted: one on the PTO shaft, and a tension roller that runs against the back Quoted: of the belt to engage it. Quoted: Quoted: It may take some amount of fiddling around to keep the belt Quoted: from occasionally jumping off the pulleys. Quoted: Quoted: Jon
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Thank, Jon, and everyone who responded to my question about idling v belts.
To others, I am well aware that there is no appreciable load until an electrical load is placed on the generator/s. However, one load that is of concern is the inertial load when the armature/s are being spun up from a starter designed for only so much pull until the stop is reached and, of course, the additional wear on bearing/s, brushes. The engine needs to have so many revolutions before it will sustain ignition and it is a bit more difficult to attain when more load is present.
Many posted without reading the entire thread thereby, repeating what has already been said.
One day, I swear, I am going to ask what it is and sit back and watch. It should be great fun for all.
Anyway, thanks all.
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:27:15 -0500, Jon Elson
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: snipped-for-privacy@widget.com wrote: Quoted: Quoted: >I am building a widget consisting of a 5.5 h.p. lawnmower engine Quoted: >in the center of a 36" x 12" x 3/8" aluminum plate. Quoted: >On either end are a 3 kw.120 v.a.c. generator Quoted: >and a Leece-Neville 140 amp. 14 volt alternator. Quoted: > Quoted: >This contraption will be driven by b-sized, v belts. Quoted: >What I wish is to have the ability to drive both Quoted: >simultaneously or each independently. Quoted: > Quoted: >So, is it practical to engage the one that I want to drive Quoted: >with an idler pulley and on the UN-driven one release the Quoted: >tension on its idler pulley? Quoted: > Quoted: >What I am asking is that is it practical to have a v belt Quoted: >that is not being used, to just be very loose in the pulley Quoted: >grooves while not being used? Quoted: > Quoted: > Quoted: Lawnmowers certainly do this. The PTO "clutch" on my Quoted: Bolens works this way. They have two sheaves, on on the engine, Quoted: one on the PTO shaft, and a tension roller that runs against the back Quoted: of the belt to engage it. Quoted: Quoted: It may take some amount of fiddling around to keep the belt Quoted: from occasionally jumping off the pulleys. Quoted: Quoted: Jon
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Is that enough horsepower to drive these devices?

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Not to run both at full tilt, Steve.
However, both should be able to run simultaneously on medium load.
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 17:54:19 -0400, "Steve Mulhollan"
Quoted: Is that enough horsepower to drive these devices? Quoted:
Quoted: Quoted: > I am building a widget consisting of a 5.5 h.p. lawnmower engine Quoted: > in the center of a 36" x 12" x 3/8" aluminum plate. Quoted: > On either end are a 3 kw.120 v.a.c. generator Quoted: > and a Leece-Neville 140 amp. 14 volt alternator. Quoted: > Quoted: Quoted:
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I don't know if this would help you or not but have you thought about electromagnetic clutches for V belts. http://www.mermaidmarine.com/index.cfm?CFID 138979&CFTOKENF593748&dotail&productIDw92121
If that link does not work type clutch in the search area of the following website www.mermaidmarine.com

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See my reply to Bob Robinson.
Thanks
wrote:
Quoted: I don't know if this would help you or not but have you thought about Quoted: electromagnetic clutches for V belts. Quoted: http://www.mermaidmarine.com/index.cfm?CFID 138979&CFTOKENF593748&dotail&productIDw92121 Quoted: Quoted: If that link does not work type clutch in the search area of the following Quoted: website www.mermaidmarine.com Quoted: Quoted:
Quoted: Quoted: > I am building a widget consisting of a 5.5 h.p. lawnmower engine Quoted: > in the center of a 36" x 12" x 3/8" aluminum plate. Quoted: > On either end are a 3 kw.120 v.a.c. generator Quoted: > and a Leece-Neville 140 amp. 14 volt alternator. Quoted: > Quoted: > This contraption will be driven by b-sized, v belts. Quoted: > What I wish is to have the ability to drive both Quoted: > simultaneously or each independently. Quoted: > Quoted: > So, is it practical to engage the one that I want to drive Quoted: > with an idler pulley and on the UN-driven one release the Quoted: > tension on its idler pulley? Quoted: > Quoted: > What I am asking is that is it practical to have a v belt Quoted: > that is not being used, to just be very loose in the pulley Quoted: > grooves while not being used? Quoted: > Quoted: > Quoted: > Thanks Quoted:
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what you describe is commonly used on lawn mowers (older torro brand comes to mind) to engage the blade - so I don't see why it won't work. but personally, I'd drive both all the time and unload one or the other electrically.

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On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:32:54 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@widget.com calmly ranted:

I'd go with a sliding gear which could be selected to engage one or the other generator before you started the engine. Y'know, a simple type of transmichigan.
That or have the generators (or idlers which drive them) slide into mesh with a perimeter toothed belt.

No, but if you don't care about needing to replace the belt (since it wore out from friction-rubbing on the pulley while it wasn't being engaged) almost every time you want to switch to the other generator, it won't be a problem. ;)
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Use standard v-belt idler pulleys. They come in two flavors: 'v' type that run on the inside, flat type that press in from the outside. I'd suggest that you use an over center lever arraingement that pulls the idlers with some strong springs. Mount the idlers on some short lever arms that pivot into place.
snipped-for-privacy@widget.com wrote:

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