Opportunity Digs; Spirit Advances

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John Curtis

I have seem solid sulfur in many forms in many different outcrops, but nothing quite like what we see at the Opportunity site. Remember it is high in sulfur. But it is not pure sulfur.

Reply to
George
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Of course it does. And the science team member who have spent years of

60-80 hour weeks to get the damn instruments put together and on to Mars have a right for first crack at the data. . . otherwise where is the incentive for someone in a publish or perish peer-reviewed feld to devote so much of their personal resources to making the best Mars mission they can?

Hubble data has been embargoed for a full year after observation (I think it used to be even longer) ever since it launched. Now, that does not stop earlier release when the folks who won the time OK it, but release happens after a set time period regardless. How come you have not protested this policy? What about every scrap of data produced on every publicly funded telescope, or taken by publicly funded astronomers (or chemists, or physicists or biochemists or zoologists etc...)? None of that is required by law to be made public immediately either, though that intellectual property certainly belongs to the citizens of the U.S. Why should this be any different?

Reply to
David T

The problem is two found.

  1. The US government does not wont any one to find signs of life any where but earth as it has stated there is no aliens....

  1. The US government does not wont any one to know anything it does not wont you to know, or what it thinks you do not need to know.

So free your m>

Reply to
???

Earthling! GET OFF THIS WAVELENGTH

Thanks for cooporating,

- Intergalactic Dweeb Corp.

With patience of mind comes freedom. Get a clue.

Reply to
George

Actually, I don't think government-funded IP does necessarily belong to the citizens, unfortunately. See, for instance

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It doesn't quite seem fair, but I'm not well-enough versed in the policty details to have a informed opinion.

Reply to
Kenneth Chiu

If he has ever paid taxes, he is the owner of that data. Credentials enough for you? It is for me. It ought to be enough for us all. If it isn't, then who is quailfied to decide? And what divined hand annointed them to be a more worth citizen?

So do you have to get a clearance to read a book or newspaper he bought? or should he be free to do so, whether he could read or not. who is to stop him? It's his. He paid for it.

You see there's a principle of law involved here. He happens to be on the right side of the law. You are not. Check the 14th amendment some time.

Also

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Finally, something to think about.

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When you hear someone cry "injustice!" and you want him to shut up, you should expect even more injustice to happen to you very shortly. We either care about each others rights, or we loose any hope of maintaining any for ourselves.

Reply to
Randy M. Dumse

Randy,

I rather think the situation is contractual, with the embargo built into the contracts. If so, your 14th amendment issue is moot, since you are not in the same situation and condition as they are.

If you are unhappy with the situation, you have a legal recourse. Two, in fact.

First, you can peacefully assemble to petition the government, probably best to begin with your Congresscritter and Senator, although petitioning the President might be fun, too.

Second, you can bring an action in Federal court to enforce what you consider to be your rights. I suspect you won't get far this way, but at least it'd keep you off the streets and use up your life savings.

Or you can wait like the rest of us, and begin development of your expose' when the stuff is released.

All that takes time and effort. Will you do the hard work, or will you only bitch?

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

That's bullshit. NASA in particular would absolutely LOVE to find evidence of life on other planets. In fact, they have been accused of being a bit overzealous in this area, particularly in relation to their findings on martian metor ALH 84001.

Why in the world do you think they are so obsessed with finding water on Mars?

Reply to
El Guapo

Uh, no, sorry, wrong. The government is. There are *many* things the government owns which it will not give copies of to a random taxpayer on request. (For example, you can't demand a copy of your neighbor's tax return, not even if you suspect he's cheating on it.)

Nor is this even unusual. Being a shareholder in a company makes you part owner of it, but does not entitle you to demand copies of its internal documents.

Your elected officials and their assistants, of course. The US is a republic, not a pure democracy; your power and ownership are exercised through representatives, not directly.

Reply to
Henry Spencer

I am having trouble adding Elifritz to my trn KILL file.

Can anyone help me out?

I can do "K" to kill the subject, but I don't know how to KILL on the author.

I figured others might be interested in how to do this also.

Reply to
Alan Kilian

I know of a lot of publically funded data that people cannot get to. In fact, I would wager a bet, most people would not want anything to do with the raw data...it's usually pretty boring stuff. In this case, it's probably a bunch of 1's and 0's.

I do have a question, what about the rights of those who have worked on this project...what do you, and others propose their reward be?

Personally, I think first crack at the data seems a reasonable award for their direct participation in the project. I cannot see how providing data immediately to all can truly further the scientific process. I also think those with reasonable creditentials who insist upon immediate and direct access without being involved with the process are nothing but a bunch of freeloaders. Those without training, credentials or participation that want this raw data are worse than freeloaders.

Reply to
jbeck

Sure. So beyond this spectroscopy data, is there any data that you have tried to get but couldn't? And can you explain why waiting 6 months is going to prevent you from doing good science?

Reply to
Kenneth Chiu

February 20, 2004

Is that some kind of veiled threat?

Or are you just another asshole. Just filter me, it's easy, and if you can't figure it out, you must be a moron, and they should relieve you of your tenure forthwith.

Thomas Lee Elifritz

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Reply to
Thomas Lee Elifritz

You think your government can enter into a contract that allows others to violate your rights? Sorry, no. That would be an illegal act, and therefore an invalid contract.

Come on, now. Think. If a white contractor got paid by the government to build a bridge, would they have exclusive rights to use it, and prohibit blacks from using it for a year? Would having a clause written in the contract make any difference to the fact one class was getting special priveleges over another class, while using the money and resources from all?

Rights are never moot, or they never were rights.

I do work hard, and I pay for my own research.

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To quote Voltare, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." I guess the part where I don't care about the data didn't come through. What I care about is a citizen (Thomas Lee Elifritz) is being vocal about his rights being violated, and Keith Lehman and others dunning him for doing so. It is a shame no one seems to care if anyone else's rights get violated. The reason we should do it is because we hope to keep our own rights. Because, the only way we keep rights is by banning together and supporting each other.

Do I take it you only intend to bitch then? and I shouldn't look to you for any hard work when they take me away... and you would approve if I had the same attitude toward you?

Reply to
Randy M. Dumse

February 20, 2004

If you are really interested, I can fill you in on my specific interest in this mission. I am not by any means an expert, but I am intimately familiar with things like algal and microbial mats, stromatolites, and the effects of large scale glaciation on sedimentary and cementaceous strata. I was born in central Wisconsin, and I have lived on the Great Bahama Bank for decades. I've seen this all before. It's fairly clear to me now, Mars is heavily glaciated with indurated ice sheets relatively unique to Mars, and the deposition is almost certainly biogenically enhanced and/or modified.

These missing spectra are crucial to my analyses.

Watching Squyres squirm is almost comical.

It's almost just too much to take.

I am so disappointed.

Thomas Lee Elifritz

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Reply to
Thomas Lee Elifritz

FOIA.

The US Constitution, written by the our elected officials, is called the highest law in the land, says one group can not have special priveleges over another. And then our other elected officals pass a law called the "Freedom of Information Act" where the government must disclose information it collects...

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I don't see anything about mars data in the list of excluded items, unless they might be claiming this is "geological and geophysical information and data, including maps, concerning wells." They are looking for water after all, but I can't say this qualifies as wells.

So let me see if I understand your position. The constitution doesn't count, the law doesn't count, our elected officials don't count, but their assistants some how count. Some minor bureaucrat decides to deprive citizens of their rights and those protections under that law, and that's a good thing. That about cover it? Or haven't you looked at this in this light? Or are you one of those minor bureaucrats with special priveleges who think they're above the law?

Reply to
Randy M. Dumse

Wow. Just Wow. No rights are, in fact, being violated; the complaint that they are is not the fact that they are.

So if you had a contract with the government to do research using government-funded facilities, with you doing the reseach yourself; and the contract included a clause that allowed you to use the results of the reseach for a period of time, after which the data would be released to the public; and the group that lost the contract to you because it was inferior scientifically and more costly; in that case, you would just hand over your research to that inferior competetor as soon as you'd done the work to develop it?

Or if that's too hard, how about if you bought a car, signed the contract, took posession of it, and your neighbor used it as though it was theirs.

Or if that's too hard, how about if the US made a treaty (essentially a super-contract) with an Indian tribe about their reservation, and you just moved onto the res because you are an American, and the contract (treaty) gave the Indians something that you wanted.

Or how about if you just admit that you have no respect for someone else's rights when they interfere with what you want?

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

Tom,

Learn to live with disappointment. Or get yourself some patience. Your choice.

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

Then it is your duty as a citizen to report a crime. FOIA. It's the law.

You mean to say, they did this for free? They didn't get a salary? Or were they actually well paid?

It doesn't matter if you see how providing the data immediately will do this or that. What matters is the law requires it be released to its owners. The point is not scientific process, the point is legal process.

Somebody who works for me with my money, and then claims special privelege with data I paid for is also worse than a freeloader. They are an out right criminal. Their reward should be incarceration.

Reply to
Randy M. Dumse

Analogies, huh... The one offered is not appropriate to the situation. Let's see if we can get one closer to the facts.

How about if you bought a car, signed the contract, paid for it, but weren't able to take posession of it right away, and so you paid your neighbor, a professional driver, $1000 to bring it home for you. But your neighbor decided they could used it as though it was theirs for the first 50,000 miles. You get it after they're done with it. What if the car dealer gave them permision to do so in a contract you didn't approve? Make any difference? Now that is a closer analogy of what has been done here.

Treaties fall into a whole different category. Treaties are now the favorite way of bypassing the constitution. First used to create laws without a constitutional basis in the early 1930's. Also, gor instance, it doesn't take 2000 pages to describe "free" trade. But I haven't heard you have any respect for the law, so I'll assume you aren't interested in those details, unless I hear otherwise.

Strawman. I have no interest in the data. My motivation is entirely caring about someone's rights, and here you are accusing me of what you are doing. Tsk tsk. How about you apologize for implication to the contrary? Just a suggestion. Don't be offended just because I am.

Reply to
Randy M. Dumse

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