Opportunity Digs; Spirit Advances



Demostrated... careful in your research?
Pot, Kettle, Black.
--
Randy M. Dumse

Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I know of a lot of publically funded data that people cannot get to. In fact, I would wager a bet, most people would not want anything to do with the raw data...it's usually pretty boring stuff. In this case, it's probably a bunch of 1's and 0's.
I do have a question, what about the rights of those who have worked on this project...what do you, and others propose their reward be?
Personally, I think first crack at the data seems a reasonable award for their direct participation in the project. I cannot see how providing data immediately to all can truly further the scientific process. I also think those with reasonable creditentials who insist upon immediate and direct access without being involved with the process are nothing but a bunch of freeloaders. Those without training, credentials or participation that want this raw data are worse than freeloaders.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Then it is your duty as a citizen to report a crime. FOIA. It's the law.

You mean to say, they did this for free? They didn't get a salary? Or were they actually well paid?

It doesn't matter if you see how providing the data immediately will do this or that. What matters is the law requires it be released to its owners. The point is not scientific process, the point is legal process.

Somebody who works for me with my money, and then claims special privelege with data I paid for is also worse than a freeloader. They are an out right criminal. Their reward should be incarceration.
--
Randy M. Dumse
www.newmicros.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Its owners are some combination of the government and the scientists involved. Not you. (No, you do not own the government, as you will discover if you try to drive off with a police car or borrow a USAF jet.)

If they are working for you, the IRS will be very interested to know why you haven't remitted withholding tax deducted from their salaries. Assorted other government agencies will likewise want to know why you have not met various other legal obligations involved in employing someone. By your reasoning, *you* would be guilty of quite a few criminal offences.
It would seem there is a flaw or two in your reasoning.
--
MOST launched 30 June; science observations running | Henry Spencer
since Oct; first surprises seen; papers pending. | snipped-for-privacy@spsystems.net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You are using uselessly generic arguments here again. The point is precisely scientific. Name the specific laws. Put up or shut up.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
February 21, 2004

There ought to be a law, eh?
Prohibit crackpots from posting crackpot theories on the usenet?
Chosp uses his fundamental right to freedom of speech, to protest against our fundamental right to freedom of speech.
America is great, isn't it?
Thomas Lee Elifritz http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Sorry, I disagree. In the specific case that I am refering to, I do not think there are any crimes being committed. If there truely are legal issues within that case that I do not see, then I need to review my understanding of the legalities. Also, on a moral and ethical note, with that specific data set, I see no personal nor societal conflicts. So, I just don't buy that there is a crime...legally or morally.
It boils down to there not being resources available to make available that data.

Rewards go past salaries.

I thought it was going to be released. 12 months? 6 months? After they have had a chance to review it a bit?

Considering that the data is to be released at some future date, I do not really buy into this argument.
Thanks for the post.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Here I am in complete agreement with you. Well said.
--
Randy M. Dumse

Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
February 21, 2004

What else are you going to do? You've already demonstrated that you don't care to understand the local spectroscopy of the Martian surface.
Hello, Mr. President, thank-you for taking my call. This SPECTRAgate scandal, could you please straighten that out for me by tomorrow?
Thank-you, I'll check in the morning to make sure the missing spectra are posted on NASA's website. I'll be sure to vote for you in November too.
Or perhaps I could organize a massive picket of JPL?
Show me some spectroscopy, crackpot.
Thoms Lee Elifritz http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

http://www.defraudingamerica.com/crime_reporting_statute.html
You need to report it. Nothing will happen until you do. Your failure to report it implies your complicity with it. Since you are the offended party, it's all up to you.
--
Randy M. Dumse

Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

And if he doesn't, you do. To quote from the underlined section of the document you just cited:
"The federal crime reporting statute requires anyone knowing of a federal crime to promptly report it to a federal court."
If you believe what you have written, that it is a crime, then YOUR failure to report it implies YOUR complicity with it. However, since you have never really specified the crime, nor any specific laws broken, nor mentioned anything whatsoever specific to the actual situation being discussed, we can safely be assured that you won't. Instead, your most probable course of action will be to whine a little while longer with useless generic arguments then fade back into the woodwork from whence you came.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

On the contrary, I have no first hand knowledge of an actionable crime by a Federal Agent (called a Blevins action iirc). Making legal accusations without factual basis is not the intent of those dictates. I, for one, at this point have doubts of the true citizenship of Elifritz, and if he is a reliable witness concerning the data availability. But I would certainly encourage anyone having first hand knowledge to follow through as their conscience dictates.
I am happy to fade back into the woodwork and leave you in your ensconced state of self-imposed ignorance. George Washington himself advised it was better to be alone, than in bad company.
--
Randy M. Dumse

Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
February 26, 2004
jbeck wrote:

I said spectrograms and spectrographs, trivially reducible from the raw data, usually automated.

Sure, like news conferences where they present the same spectrograph that the presented on day 1, but decline to present spectrographs which are clearly in their possession, or post them on their website, a trivial operation. Only an elitist would call anyone a layperson, and only an asshole like you would call people who wish to learn something new in science - wannabes.
America - Obese, Ignorant and Stupid, and proud of it.
Hey NASA, Fuck You. Stronger verbiage will follow.
Thomas Lee Elifritz http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Perhaps some spectra are difficult to interpret because they do not match the database of earthly rocks. Of possible 100 metal hydrides, only 7(?) are detectable on Earth: H2O, CH4, NH3, H2S, HCl, HBr, and HI. The rest decompose in the presence of oxygen or water. I theorize, that if martian vulcanism persisted after oxygen and water became scarse, additional hydrides may be present on Mars. For analogy, FeH2, CaH2 and CrH2 are present in L dwarfs: http://www.tass-survey.org/richmond/answers/ldwarf.html SiH4, PH3 and AsH3 were detected in Jupiter: http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970408b.html John Curtis
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

If the other 93 are not detectable on earth, perhaps you could enlighten us as to how they were ever detected in the first place?

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
<snip>

us
For starters, they can be made in the lab and then a spectral analysis performed. Simple. Those that break down in the presence of oxygen or water need not suffer that fate in a good chemist's hands. Furthermore, you can get a wonderful idea of what their spectra would look like theoretically and then you can check it against man-made samples for verification. Then we would know their signatures if ever detected under non-terrestrial conditions.
Cheers!
Chip Shults
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Oh, so they CAN be detected on Earth! Thanks for clarifying that situaton for me. For a moment I thought he as saying that only "7" could be detected on Earth!

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I think that he meant to say that one could expect to only find those 7 by going outside in the back yard and dig up some dirt and rocks and measure them in the lab....
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

situaton
detected
I realize what he meant. I just wish people could be just a little more precise in their meaning so the kooks don't come out of the woodwork and try to make mountains out of mole hills. On that note, there may be something to what he is saying. Yet not being a chemist myself, I don't know how much interference there other hydrides would have on the ones were are looking for. Can the instrumentation on the rovers even detect those other hydrides?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
or http://athena.cornell.edu/news / John Curtis
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.