Re: How Robots Will Steal Your Job

wrote:


Typical left wing drool. The examples are, essentially, cases in which a large-scale trade agreement imposes certain global standards that are incompatible with standards imposed locally. A polity choosing to engage in such large scale agreements necessarily, therefore, imposes restrictions on local governance within that polity. (This is particularly the case in democracies where local action can easily be used to subvert the aims of global agreements.)
So provisions were made to deal with such cases. You got a better way of framing continental or global trade agreements?
Sure, you can argue the case that a particular agreement should have been negotiated differently, that we shouldn't deal with any country that employs children, kills elephants, impedes corporations, allows music, or whatever other religious or cultural taboos we want to impose. There are plenty of legal avenues open to those with such opinions to express them and vote for leaders who will implement them.
The fact remains: global trade agreements mean restrictions on local laws. Whatever such agreements you make. [I refer only to free or quasi-free trade agreements, obviously a dictator or sultan can trade directly with his peers without any effect on local law.]

If your argument had any merit, they would incorporate.
Again, nobody disputes that ongoing reform in corporate governance is possible and even desirable, just as in other areas of law. In many countries, for example, restrictions on hiring and firing verge on the ridiculous.
- Gerry Quinn
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Those truly deviant people control about half the governments of this world...

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message wrote or quoted :
While this is all very fascinating, I fail to see it's relevance to java programming.
Please remove c.l.j.p from any follow-ups..
TIA
-- Andrew Thompson * http://www.PhySci.org/ PhySci software suite * http://www.1point1C.org/ 1.1C - Superluminal! * http://www.AThompson.info/andrew/ personal site
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Programmer Dude wrote:

Creating and using tools. Are whales and dolphins intelligent? They don't use tools, but they might be intelligent and may posess some of the descriptors of intelligent behavior. And then, if they don't have tools, commerce, trade and economy are problematic...
chris in napa
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: Programmer Dude wrote: :> Okay, so is it possible to derive a putative definition of what :> constitutes intelligence? If machines become sentient, or if :> animals turn out to be far more intelligent than it appears, how :> might we recognize it? [snip] :> Some possible descriptors of intelligent behavior: :> * Creating and Using Tools :> * Developing Commerce, Trade and an Economy :> * Developing Mathematics and Language :> * Having History, Liturature and Art :> * Having Government and Law :> Some possible definitions of intelligence: :> * Abstract Thought (leads to math and art) :> * Builds on the Work of Previous Generations :> Others? Problems with the above? :> : Creating and using tools. Are whales and dolphins intelligent? They : don't use tools, but they might be intelligent and may posess some of : the descriptors of intelligent behavior. And then, if they don't have : tools, commerce, trade and economy are problematic...
This list falls into a really big trap. We are defining intelligence and intelligent behavior by what we observe in our own species. Hell, we don't even see all of these behaviors in all of the cultures on this planet. Another thought that I've had, most people seem to think that intelligence is a binary switch: this species has it, this doesn't - A very humanocentric point of view, if it ain't like us, it ain't intelligent. I feel that intelligence is a sliding scale based upon the species. I've seen planning and tool use in other species (chimps, bears, racoons), forms of government in wolf packs and horse herds, and many animals seem to have the ability to communicate with each other, like dolphins. I posit that just about any animal is intelligent, just perhaps not so much as (most) humans. However, we are very, very limited in our ability to create a proper definition because we live in a vacuum. There are no other intelligent species that we've learned to communicate with, so we have absolutely NO frame of reference. We can continue to try, but until we have met and communicated with another intelligent species our theories are no better than the world views of the ancient Egyptians, Norse seaman or Gaelic druids. We just need more data!
IMO, DLC
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On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:39:04 -0400, Dennis Clark wrote:

Don't forget crows!
    http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/crow /
If we could only create AI half as smart ...
Cheers, -Brian
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BDMICRO - Maker of the MAVRIC ATmega128 Dev Board
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Brian Dean wrote:

Yup! That's right. But...crows are pretty smart. It's getting so that "bird brain" isn't such a put down...
chris in napa
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Brian Dean wrote:

Pretty cool!!
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|_ CJSonnack < snipped-for-privacy@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
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Dennis Clark wrote:

---------- Yes we do.

----------- We invented it, if they can't do it then fuck them.

----------- An idea that ONLY you're capable of thinking, and animals are not.

------------------ You're merely waffling. The thing that intelligence is, is only something humans have. If animals had it, they'd be posting here.

---------------- While this is true, we can extrapolate from it. We do this in other fields.
If we were trapped in an animal's body with our intelligence, then we'd try to communicate with the humans. If we didn't it would be because we didn't HAVE our intelligence. Magical imaginings of there being "other KINDS of intelligence" are fanciful poppeycock that eveb animals don't think about EITHER, only WE do!!
Only WE are intelligent, because we INVENTED it.
-Steve
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I wouldn't consider "posting to Usenet" as the trademark of intelligence.

We invented stupid too and yet we're not the only ones who can possess that trait.
Cheers     Bent D
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On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:25:38 +0200, Neomorph

You don't need money to keep track of who owes whom a favour, who deserved the best cuts of meat, who is a deadbeat, who is old after a long productive life in a small society.
Money is an imperfect way to try to enforce our original values when you deal mostly with strangers.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:25:38 +0200, Neomorph

You might do just what a human would do in the situation, talk and blame the humans for being too dense to understand even the most basic speech.
We have decoded perhaps 20 words of orca speech, and discovered each pod has its own dialect.
Think how hard it was to decode an forgotten human language, hieroglyphics. Were it not for the Rosetta stone, we might still have got nowhere.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

---------------------------- Gee, 20 words, is consciousness even possible with only 20 words? No, anything stuck with 20 words is still a non-conscious device that only communicates like a machine by instinct, and has no internal self-modeling.
-Steve
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Those were 27 distinct words. Is the magical limit somewhere between 20 and 27 or are you saying that your position is based on instinct rather than intelligence?
Cheers     Bent D
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wrote or quoted :

If you know only twenty words of French, it says more about you than the French.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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wrote or quoted :

intelligence
Have you determined exactly how many words a species would need, then???
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On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:22:01 +0100, "Wouter Lievens"

How many words of Chinese have you decoded? Perhaps 3 or 4. Does that reflect on Chinese or you?
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy Green wrote:

The difference that strikes me is that, if I spent a year with a Chinese person, at the end of that year we would very likely be communicating pretty well. We'd have picked up much from each others' languages and would have established a *high* degree of communication bandwidth and accuracy (in other words, we would be able to "say" a lot and get it right).
I've lived with my dog for nine years, and the level of communication isn't anywhere near as high. We've actively studies dolphins and whales much longer than that, and the communication bandwidth and accuracy just isn't there.
Exactly what that means, however, may be a different question.
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|_ CJSonnack < snipped-for-privacy@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
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On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 11:59:36 -0600, Programmer Dude

One experiment you may not be aware of goes like this.
You put two dolphins in separate ponds and connect them by a hydrophone. You tell dolphin A some "secret" and then test to see if dolphin B knows it. You can control the bandwidth of the hydrophone link. If you block out the high frequency sounds, they lose the ability to communicate.
Even if you can't decode the communication, you can prove that somehow some information must have been sent -- therefore dolphins must have a way of expressing it.
But what is perhaps even stranger is the terseness of binary secret sharing. Researchers could detect no difference in the word for "yes" from the word for "no". Yet obviously somehow the information was being communicated.
Humans typically try to treat dolphins like dogs. If they obey commands then they are considered intelligent. Try that same criteria on prisoners in isolation cells, which is effectively what dolphins are.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Have you a link to a description of successful experiment of this type.

The opposite of terseness, surely?

The nature of the 'secret' also says something about the communication. Candidly, embedding a yes-no signal (in effect, a single bit) in a large burst of data is not that impressive to me.
- Gerry Quinn
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