Firefox ELV Primer/Pryogen

Hi All,
Has anyone here got experience with Firefox's ELV Primer/Pryogen? I bought some recently to make some igniters. It works great, but the
damn stuff dries out too fast! The instructions say to use it right away, that it only lasts a few days even with the bottle tightly capped. I mixed a batch and made a few igniters to experiment with. When I finished making the test igniters I topped off the bottle with acetone, screwed the lid on tight, and taped the cap thinking that would keep it from drying out for at least a couple days. But the very next day the composition was almost completely dried out! After adding more acetone and a lot of stirring I was able to get it back in usable shape. But if I had waited another day the entire batch would have dried out completely. Is there any way to keep this stuff around for more than a day or so without drying out?
Regards, Mick Newton
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I've used the Igniterman stuff, but it sounds like it's about the same thing....also cut with acetone. One helpful hint I learned from Doug Pratt of Pratt Hobbies, is to screw your cap on the bottle, turn it upside down, & put in a ziploc bag. The key is the upside down part.....because then you have that thick slurry against the screw end, making it harder for air going back & forth to dry things out. -- Richard "at least I THINK it was Doug Pratt" Hickok
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What kind of bottle and what kind of cap?
Several months ago we switched to a 30ml graduated glass bottle with a teflon lined ceramic screw on cap to put an end to the very problem you describe. This jar is very expensive comparied to what we use to use but I think it has been well worth it. I have not heard from any customer since stating that there pyrogen dried out.
Greg D. Rocketflite/Magnelite
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Checkout the airbrush section at Michaels. They have small glass jars with metal lids. The stuff will last longer in those, but still dry out. If you aren't using it for a while, let it dry out then a day or two before use, put in the acetone and start mixing/watching it again until used.
Joel. phx
The METALLIC H3 specifically says to use in a few days as it cannot be used after drying out. Believe it.

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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have always been under the impression that
METAL SCREW LID = BOOM!!
And that's why people (with all of their fingers) use plastic lids or lids with Teflon inserts.
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117 (Notice I did not provide the link to the explosives injury photos)
-- ""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.

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Geesh, you mean like 1lb cans of black powder sold in metal cans with metal lids? Guess everyone buying blackpowder is dead then.
Joel. phx

impression that

with Teflon

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Some powders/solids/mixes/solutions go BOOM when crunched between a metal screw top and glass jar or metal can. Some do not.
I guess my simple post could have been mis-interpreted by some as indicating that anything inside a can or jar with a metal screw top will go boom. That is not correct.
One boom will ruin your day.
http://www.sonic.net/~brucel/explosivegraphics.html
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
-- ""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.

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snipped-for-privacy@zorch.alum.zorch.mit.edu says...

So I can safely eat my peanut butter? Man, I was worried (and getting hungry).
--
Kurt Kesler



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PB jars haven't had metal lids for at least a decade. I remember the switch very well. Belker (our first rocket dog) had learned the sound of the PB jar being opened, and came running for a finger licking whenever you opened the jar. When the new plastic jars came out, she was missing until she relearned the sound. And she just LOVED sticking her head in the jar to lick the empties spotless. Her head smelled of PB for days afterwards.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD says...

Would you care to wager?
--
Kurt Kesler



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lids
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snipped-for-privacy@thegroup.thanks says...

Hey, I get to use an old sig!
--
Kurt Kesler

40,000 Americans are injured by toilets each year.
  Click to see the full signature.
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So what you're saying is that unless you specifically know that it's dangerous, you should go right ahead and store pyrotechnic mixtures in a jar or can with a plain metal lid?
All I was saying is that it COULD be dangerous. I will not list specific mixtures and examples that are dangerous. I'm sure there are thousands and it's up to the individual person to be careful. A simple reminder that things can go boom when the lid is screwed on is just that - a simple reminder. It was not an attempt to state that everything is dangerous.
I'm POSITIVE that most of these folks thought that there was not a large danger in the activities they were engaged in (otherwise they would have been INSANE to engage in those activities):
http://www.sonic.net/~brucel/explosivegraphics.html
So to sum it up:
I say be careful. Others attack me for saying to be careful.
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
-- ""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.

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or
photos)
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I'm sorry if you or anyone else has taken my simple and vague staements the wrong way. Please don't, Please take them the way I intended them to be taken - as general and vague.
I have not done a big extensive search for specific info on screw caps or lids and explosion hazards, but I'm pretty sure it is out there in text books and maybe even on the web. I'll take 1 minute and do a basic search and see if I can find anything...
Here is only one example:
http://www.safetyinfo.com/safetyinfo/html/aa-guest-info/chemical-reactive.htm
I know that long ago when I was in chemistry class I heard of many examples of folks blowing themselves up while screwing end caps on "devices" as well as on bottles (both the wrong kind of bottle/lid with the wrong substances inside). I'm not a chemistry major. I just remember the warnings.
I choose to advise that there is a real safety concern with the some substances and metal screw caps. I do not pretend to know which substances. You seem to take my simple general staements and then try to make it sound like I'm making another staement about igniter materials. I never did that. I simply made a statement about metal lids and the never-specifically-defined "some substances". My vague staement remains correct (and vague). I'm sorry it's too vague. It will not get less vague. It will remian vague. It could even get vaguer(er).
If you or anyone else is worried about blowing your fingers or hands off, get good safety information. In other words, don't listen to people on newsgroups.
--
-Fred Shecter
Auctions:
  Click to see the full signature.
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the wrong way.

Implying they'll blow their hands up. Is that not the way you intended?

general and

As FUD. Ok.

lids and

maybe even on

anything...
http://www.safetyinfo.com/safetyinfo/html/aa-guest-info/chemical-reactive.htm
Highly Reactive Chemicals
People are making igniters from "Highly Reactive Chemicals"?
General, just like when people asked about making rocket propellant and you posted the blowed up hand link? Nothing about it being made safely, or how it can be made safely just, 'you'll shoot your eye out.'
FUD.

examples of folks

bottles (both

chemistry
Ah, so it could be flash powder, igniter formula, or orange juice. Don't use a metal lid. Could it be the powder chamber on a RMS? Don't fly motors you have to screw threaded metal components together.

substances and

staement about

Firefox ELV Primer/Pryogen thread. That's igniter material. Sorry to everyone that I initially thought the paint lids were metal. On the other hand the Firefox lids ARE metal so the point is moot.

correct (and

remian vague. It

get good

Or fear mongers without facts.
Joel. phx

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=spammercity
the
lids
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Any one who can't take your statements for what they are, should go visit a burn center or tape their thumb to their palm for a couple days. My brother learned the hard way. Gary Deaver

or
http://www.safetyinfo.com/safetyinfo/html/aa-guest-info/chemical-reactive.htm
you
how
a
motors
off,
newsgroups.
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=spammercity
plastic
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Fred,
You definitely wouldn't want to use a glass jar with a metal lid to hold flash powder. I've heard that some flash compositions, especially those made with chlorates, are so sensitive that a spark from a fingernail can ignite them. But if you're putting flash in a glass jar, you probably shouldn't be making, or have access to, flash at all. <g>
From the testing I've done so far, I think it would take a pretty big spark to ignite this pyrogen. But, please don't take my word for it. I'm a total newbie when it comes to pyrotechnic compositions.
Thanks for the reply.
Regards, Mick

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Silly me. I stand corrected. FireFox igniter mixtures come in a glass jar with a metal lid. I apologize for the confusion. I have had better luck with straight acetone in the paint jars, available in the Michaels airbrush cabinets.
Joel. phx
And please, don't completely blow your hand off or place the jar of mixture in your mouth while smoking.

impression that

with Teflon

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I'm sorry, just looked and the lids are plastic with some type of liner. I opened one which I store acetone in, and it's gone down a little. The acetone doesn't seem to attack the liner like it does on other jars.
Joel. phx

with
you
used
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