Has anyone here got experience with Firefox's ELV Primer/Pryogen? I bought some recently to make some igniters. It works great, but the damn stuff dries out too fast! The instructions say to use it right away, that it only lasts a few days even with the bottle tightly capped. I mixed a batch and made a few igniters to experiment with. When I finished making the test igniters I topped off the bottle with acetone, screwed the lid on tight, and taped the cap thinking that would keep it from drying out for at least a couple days. But the very next day the composition was almost completely dried out! After adding more acetone and a lot of stirring I was able to get it back in usable shape. But if I had waited another day the entire batch would have dried out completely. Is there any way to keep this stuff around for more than a day or so without drying out?
I've used the Igniterman stuff, but it sounds like it's about the same thing....also cut with acetone. One helpful hint I learned from Doug Pratt of Pratt Hobbies, is to screw your cap on the bottle, turn it upside down, & put in a ziploc bag. The key is the upside down part.....because then you have that thick slurry against the screw end, making it harder for air going back & forth to dry things out. -- Richard "at least I THINK it was Doug Pratt" Hickok
Several months ago we switched to a 30ml graduated glass bottle with a teflon lined ceramic screw on cap to put an end to the very problem you describe. This jar is very expensive comparied to what we use to use but I think it has been well worth it. I have not heard from any customer since stating that there pyrogen dried out.
Checkout the airbrush section at Michaels. They have small glass jars with metal lids. The stuff will last longer in those, but still dry out. If you aren't using it for a while, let it dry out then a day or two before use, put in the acetone and start mixing/watching it again until used.
Joel. phx
The METALLIC H3 specifically says to use in a few days as it cannot be used after drying out. Believe it.
I'm sorry, just looked and the lids are plastic with some type of liner. I opened one which I store acetone in, and it's gone down a little. The acetone doesn't seem to attack the liner like it does on other jars.
Some powders/solids/mixes/solutions go BOOM when crunched between a metal screw top and glass jar or metal can. Some do not.
I guess my simple post could have been mis-interpreted by some as indicating that anything inside a can or jar with a metal screw top will go boom. That is not correct.
One boom will ruin your day.
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-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
-- ""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.
And specifically which of the mixtures described in this thread have an issue? We're back to that FUD thing, aren't we.
indicating that anything
You mean when you posted:
?
Joel. phx
Which one of those was caused by Firefox's ELV pryogen in a jar with a metal top? Have you seen the dried out mixture? Is it even explosive from spark or pressure at that point? Have you attempted to ignite the liquid (which the bit in the treads would have to set off)?
A car crash can ruin your day just the same. Got any pictures of those? What about falling in the bathroom. Lots of deaths there,....
PB jars haven't had metal lids for at least a decade. I remember the switch very well. Belker (our first rocket dog) had learned the sound of the PB jar being opened, and came running for a finger licking whenever you opened the jar. When the new plastic jars came out, she was missing until she relearned the sound. And she just LOVED sticking her head in the jar to lick the empties spotless. Her head smelled of PB for days afterwards.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
So what you're saying is that unless you specifically know that it's dangerous, you should go right ahead and store pyrotechnic mixtures in a jar or can with a plain metal lid?
All I was saying is that it COULD be dangerous. I will not list specific mixtures and examples that are dangerous. I'm sure there are thousands and it's up to the individual person to be careful. A simple reminder that things can go boom when the lid is screwed on is just that - a simple reminder. It was not an attempt to state that everything is dangerous.
I'm POSITIVE that most of these folks thought that there was not a large danger in the activities they were engaged in (otherwise they would have been INSANE to engage in those activities):
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So to sum it up:
I say be careful. Others attack me for saying to be careful.
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
-- ""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.
Could you post any of evidence that metal lids are a problem? Is that too much to ask? They could be, I don't know, but didn't find anything in searches. Maybe there's a good book that specifies the subject? Does the manufacturer explicitly warn not to store in a glass jar with a metal lid? It would be helpful to state what the correct storage method is/are instead of 'watch out you might blow your hand up if you mix this stuff', yes? If the mixture is pressure sensitive, it's possible that even the friction of a plastic threaded lid would set it off as you fully tighten it down. Are igniter makers mixing substances this dangerous (and without an LEUP)?
Yes. Pumping gas could be dangerous. Explosive fireballs. Watch out.
OR, use caution when pumping gas. I've read that static electricity generated when entering/leaving the vehicle has caused gas fumes around the nozzle to ignite when the nozzle was touched, causing a spark.
engage in those
Read the captions. They were INSANE in what they were doing (M-80s, fireworks in mouth). Posting this link is nothing more than 2 senators from the East coast trying to frighten a bunch of sheeple with 7 foot tall rockets and reports of taking down an airplane at 30,000 ft.
You didn't say 'be careful'. "> > METAL SCREW LID = BOOM!!" You implied that they would be like those pictures, without providing evidence of any sort. aka rumor monging. Not too long ago that link was posted because "making your own motors is dangerous and cause severe burns {so don't make them,...}"
If you want to call questioning your information and delivery as an "attack", that's up to you.
I use the ELV conductive and non conductive primers for making igniters (the main pyrogen is my own cocktail of Titanium, Magnesium and potassium perchlorate) and either one can be restored after evaporation by wetting it with Acetone. You really have to work it in order to dissolve all the dried Cellulose Acetate binder, but it's been a year since I bought the stuff and it still works great.
Silly me. I stand corrected. FireFox igniter mixtures come in a glass jar with a metal lid. I apologize for the confusion. I have had better luck with straight acetone in the paint jars, available in the Michaels airbrush cabinets.
Joel. phx
And please, don't completely blow your hand off or place the jar of mixture in your mouth while smoking.
I use it all the time for ejection charge ignitors. For some time I have "broken the rules" and mixed the dry oxidizer into the other ingredients in the glass bottle. I just pour out a bit of the dry mixture, dab in some of the binder and make as many ignitors as I need. My ignitors are very small- they use wire-wrapping wire and require only about a "pin-head" worth of pyrogen so I still have not finished my first bottle of ELV after a couple years of flying/testing. I have probably made 500+ ignitors with the bottle so far.
I'm sorry if you or anyone else has taken my simple and vague staements the wrong way. Please don't, Please take them the way I intended them to be taken - as general and vague.
I have not done a big extensive search for specific info on screw caps or lids and explosion hazards, but I'm pretty sure it is out there in text books and maybe even on the web. I'll take 1 minute and do a basic search and see if I can find anything...
Here is only one example:
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I know that long ago when I was in chemistry class I heard of many examples of folks blowing themselves up while screwing end caps on "devices" as well as on bottles (both the wrong kind of bottle/lid with the wrong substances inside). I'm not a chemistry major. I just remember the warnings.
I choose to advise that there is a real safety concern with the some substances and metal screw caps. I do not pretend to know which substances. You seem to take my simple general staements and then try to make it sound like I'm making another staement about igniter materials. I never did that. I simply made a statement about metal lids and the never-specifically-defined "some substances". My vague staement remains correct (and vague). I'm sorry it's too vague. It will not get less vague. It will remian vague. It could even get vaguer(er).
If you or anyone else is worried about blowing your fingers or hands off, get good safety information. In other words, don't listen to people on newsgroups.
You definitely wouldn't want to use a glass jar with a metal lid to hold flash powder. I've heard that some flash compositions, especially those made with chlorates, are so sensitive that a spark from a fingernail can ignite them. But if you're putting flash in a glass jar, you probably shouldn't be making, or have access to, flash at all.
From the testing I've done so far, I think it would take a pretty big spark to ignite this pyrogen. But, please don't take my word for it. I'm a total newbie when it comes to pyrotechnic compositions.
So it's still usable after it dries out completely? Cool! I didn't know if acetone would dissolve the solidified pyrogen mass, so last night, after I added acetone and stirred it up, I made as many igniters as I could. I worked my poor fingers to the bone! Well, at least I won't have to make any more for a while.
Do you make a batch of igniters and store them, or make them as needed at a launch? If you store them, what do you store them in?
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