Well, thanks for the education, Thor. The end result is I used #6 THHN, on an outdoor box attached to the sub-panel. The plug on the welder is a 50A, and so it's what I got for the box. The 60A breaker was there, and it's what I used...
I get the part about protecting the wires and not the appliance. It appears the *grounding* wire (insulation green), from the main panel is attached to the inside of the sub-panel. I ran my grounding wire (#8) right next to it on the same piece of panel. There is a bonding strip, *not being used*, to tie together the neutral and ground, as you say, this is proper for the sub-panel.
Funny thing, the welder manual says that minimum wire size is #12! (with an
87 ft. run). That's AWG type....I suppose voltage drop don't matter much with a welder..
As for the possibility of an unbalacnced panel...........I'd like to hear the short version so I could check it out. Thanks.
Right. Large three prong. Many welders come with the mating pkug on them. My plasma cutter came without any plug so I had to buy one.
That's the point. A welder is ok on #8 wire and a 60A breaker. Appliances, e.g. a Kiln, which would be run for hours would not. Then, you'd need #6 wire for 60A.
My earlier answer was based on NEC 2002's table 310.16. If you're going to use #8 cable on a 50A breaker, the cable needs to be rated at
75°C or 90°C.
The real question is, what's the welder rated at? If it needs a 50A circuit, the breaker ought to be rated at 50 amps. And if you're installing a 50A receptacle, it should be on a legitimate 50A circuit. And if the welder is rated at 40 amps, it should be on a 40A breaker.
Will you be able to run your welder on #8 copper thru a 60A breaker? Sure. It would probably run for awhile on 12ga cable. I always go with conservative wiring and overcurrent protection, because once I install it, I never want to have to wonder about it -- ever. It also makes the inspectors happy. And when people's houses burn down, it's kind of bad for business. As my dad taught me, "wire heavy and fuse light."
FIRST AND FOREMOST, USING A 60 AMP BREAKER ON A 50 AMP OUTLET IS WRONG! The wires can handle 60 amps but the outlet is not rated for 60 amps and if you happen to get up to 60 amps the you can burn up the outlet. Once again, the circuit breaker is there to protect the conductors and the outlet. You need to get a 50 amp 2-pole breaker.
Your equipment grounding conductor(ground wire) could have been a #10 copper. I am hoping you didn't just wrap your ground wire around a screw, you can get lugs that bolt to the case. Check that unused bonding strip you saw and if it has continuity to the case (check for voltage first!) then you can use that , providing no neutrals ever get connected to the strip. You can usually see insulating washers under the screws or a bonding screw that connects the strip to the case.
Unbalanced panel:
Looking at the panel (I am not talking about 3-Phases) you have two rows of breakers. Starting at the top left single breaker space you have phase A and next single breaker space down is phase B, then A B A B A B on down to the bottom. Top right, B A B A B A B A on down to the bottom.
So, if you have
two pole 60 A B two pole 30 ^^^^^^^^^ B A ^^^^^^^^^^ two pole 20 A B two pole 40 ^^^^^^^^ B A ^^^^^^^^^^ single 20 A B single 20 single 15 B A single 20 single 15 A B single 20 single 15 B A empty single 15 A B empty
On A phase you have
60+30+20+40+20+20+15+15 = 220 amps
On phase B you have
60+30+20+40+20+15+20+15 = 220 amps
You have a balanced panel on paper.
Now look at this,
two pole 60 A B two pole 30 ^^^^^^^^^ B A ^^^^^^^^^^ two pole 20 A B two pole 40 ^^^^^^^^ B A ^^^^^^^^^^ single 20 A B single 20 single 20 B A empty single 15 A B single 20 single 20 B A empty single 15 A B single 20 single 15 B A empty
Now you have Phase A 60+30+20+40+20+15+15 = 200 amps Phase B 60+30+20+40+20+20+20+20+20+15 = 265 amps
On paper you have a 65 amp imbalance, which is a bit much. You would have to move the breakers around.
Break out your amp probe and measure all the circuits while they are in use at their expected peak and the differences can be much greater.
Just because the breaker says 20 or 15 amps doesn't mean that is how much current that circuit is using. You could have portable heaters on the 20 amp circuits and maybe just a couple lamps on the 15 amp circuits. During the winter you can overload one phase with the heaters alone.
The breakers connect to buss bars and those are rated for said amount of current. You overload the buss and it can overheat or burn up.
No. Magnetic ground clamps are the devil's spawn. They'll give you arc blow, and won't give you a good ground connection except on very clean metal either. Use a mechanical clamp that can exert some pressure.
I use autodark, but I use a good Jackson. I *hear* people say that the HF helmet is ok, but you only get one set of eyes. The fixed shade Hunter will protect those eyes, I'm not absolutely sure the HF helmet will.
Any chance? Sure, but that's what practice is for. 1/8 inch is the correct size, you just have to learn to *use* it correctly.
All true, of course. A friend actually *gave* me a Jackson today. I also bought the HF unit for $49. I cleaned up the Jackson and used them both. First thing is: The computer you are using is made up of a mother board made in China. The video, sound card, and most monitors are, too. So, an expensive Elite or such, is made using the exact same electronics. Probably made at the same plant, too. I really like auto-dark. It makes welding pretty fun. This unit seems to work just fine, and my eyes feel ok after 4 hours of burning rod. Just don't drop it..........The Jackson was fine in direct sunlight, though.
I burned a bunch of rod today. 7014, 6013, 6011. I used both AC and DC and EP and EN on all of them. Man, I really like this Hobart Stickmate! Fine machine for the bucks. It never even got warm. (don't know if it has a thermal protector or not.)
Anyway, my new guy experience is that 7014 is really easy to run a pretty bead. 6013 splatters a lot, and 6011 penetrates the most. I was able to weld pretty nicely on horizontal and flat, and even got fair at vertical up. I used the forearm technique with 7014. I had a problem with getting the chain links to stick, though. Reckon it's the zinc plating? I burned through a few times on my practice piece.
So, does anyone have a source or an idea to make/bend/fabricate some mild steel tie-downs? I want some loops, or oblong type circles to flat weld on some angle. I really don't want to grind off the coating on 50 of these guys. Maybe use some re-bar?
Anyway, thanks to all for getting me started on the right track. Next project: welding and cutting tables. No first, a cart for the welder. No, first I've got to get a dang electrician out here and check out my wiring. I'm tired of re-doing it/
This is the first panel after the meter which makes it a main entrance panel. You wire the ground wire to the neutral bar. In subfed type panels where the equipment ground and the neutral are seperate from the neutral bar you would wire it to the equip bar instead of the neutral. Like if you wired it to the panel inside the trailer. The purpose of the ground is not to go to ground but to go to the neutral back to the transformer. The terminology is often misleading.
In a service panel, the neutrial bus *is* the grounding rail.
To the box - on the neutral bus (which *is* the ground).
The neutral bar. (which *is* the ground, whuch *does* go to the water pipe, or ground rods).
I ran mine from a dryer recepticle for a year or so before I ever got around to doing it right with a deticated 50-R recepticle.
You got it. By the way - you are gonna love the smoothness of hte Thunderbolt - I have the 300 Amp versuin (A/C only), and I love it. Many many hours of welding on that thing. All copper windings, little cheap on the sheet metal, but I love it. Gonna have to adjust them bolts that put pressure on the center sliding pole piece every now and then, but thats it. Cut them short leads on it, put some nice Lenco connectors on it, and some nice welding cable, and go around back and weld - you will love it. It does well.
Define "better" hehe.... I kinda think 13 does better on A/C in that it doesn't flow out as much, and I seem to get much more precise puddle control
True to a degree. I Let a friend run a bunch of rod while I sat there with a good digital current meter, and it was closer than I expected.
Until you get addicted like I did, *then* what ?? Now I can't stop! If I don't run a bunch of rod after dinner out on the side of the house, I hand up getting crabby (and thats not good). Surprizingly, it hasn't affected the power bill that I can tell.bv
Yeah, like *thats* gonna last real long! hehe... I went down to the railroad, picked up a bunch of them big plates with the
4 holes in, and went thru a 10-pounder in no time at all.
And you'll be liking life too ! Also, try different positions,
2-hand welding for control, and all that jazz. Funzy. And don't forget about that AC-DC switch, it "does" work in the A/C position too you know! hehe
I changed mine on my 300 Amp Thunderbolt A/C. Miller cheats a little on this welder - 300Amp machine, and they give you 10-gague input cord, and #4 leads. I changed it out to a 10-foot 8-gague input cord, and put Lenco connectors on the output leads etc. On this welder, my experience is that for anything under about
110 Amps, its fine the way it is. Get up over that, and for any agressive duty cycle, shit starts to get warm.
Even in new houses the neutral and the ground are one and the same at the panel w/ the main disconnect, (but I believe for setups w/ main disconnect at the meter and the main panel remote from the meter (say indoors vs outdoors w/ the meter and main disconnect box) that the neutral and ground are split at the main disconnect) and forever after that they are (in modern construction) seperate (even though both should be at ground potential).
Or are you saying there is *no* bonding conductor from the ground/neutral bus to a driven stake and/or metalic water feed? That would be a problem, though should be easily fixable.
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