Is There a shielding gas to do both MIG & TIG...??

Break down and buy another bottle, and do it right.

Do it once, and do it right.

Steve

Trouble is Steve , here in OZ we can't buy bottles ....... We have to rent them , per month or per year.... at a daily rate. I currently have oxy... accetyle ...and Argonshield , and that costs me $34 per month. Not including the gas I use .....

Can you see where I'm coming from here.....?

Yes. And I thought it was bad here where I am paying about $60 to refill an

80 of 86/14.

Why can't you buy bottles? That sounds monopolistic.

Steve

Do you have a "permanent lease" type of deal, where you pay a deposit for the bottle, and then only pay a fixed amount for each refill, regardless of frequency?

That's the deal I have. I paid a deposit on a 300 cf bottle, and will pay $76 for every refill. If I return the bottle, I would get my deposit minus $25. It seems sensible and fair to me. I hope that you have something like that available.

i

Same in the UK :-( It's about 50 (UKP) to rent a bottle of Argoshield. That's why some of us use "under the counter pub gas" bottles for CO2

No you can not buy the bottles ......

B O C... own them .... charge you a daily rate to rent them , paid yearly or monthly . I choose monthly as they only offer you a 5% discount if you pay a year in advance , and no refund if you return them early..So for me I go monthly..... Each bottle is charged out at... $0.3227 per day ( just checked my account ) ..... 3 bottles depending on how many days in the month..... plus account has to run using direct debit .... They have us by the balls.

Just noticed a new deal in the latest account save 10% by paying 3 years in advance ..... hmmm very generous...NOT

BOC charge you rent ,...and if you are not paid up you can't have them filled ,... they run a very complex registry of all bottle renters.

Still all this bitching about bloody BOC is not solving my problem .....

IS there a gas that can double up on both MIG and TIG

Greg in OZ

Pure argon, but probably not optimal for either of them. It will definitely not hurt your equipment, though.

h> No you can not buy the bottles ...... h> B O C... own them .... charge you a daily rate to rent them , paid h> yearly or monthly . I choose monthly as they only offer you a 5% h> discount if you pay a year in advance , and no refund if you return h> them early..So for me I go monthly..... h> Each bottle is charged out at... $0.3227 per day ( just checked my h> account ) ..... 3 bottles depending on how many days in the month..... h> plus account has to run using direct debit .... They have us by the h> balls.

h> Just noticed a new deal in the latest account save 10% by paying 3 h> years in advance ..... hmmm very generous...NOT

h> BOC charge you rent ,...and if you are not paid up you can't have them h> filled ,... they run a very complex registry of all bottle renters.

h> Still all this bitching about bloody BOC is not solving my problem h> .....

h> IS there a gas that can double up on both MIG and TIG

h> Greg in OZ

I've read mention of having a pure Ar bootle and a pure CO2 bottle and mixing the two gases yourself as they come out of the reducing valve.

Sure it was one of the experienced folk on the group here.

Would be good if you could - then

- pure Ar for TIG

- pure Ar for a bit of stainless MIG (though beware very very limited penetrating power)

- For MIG, various Ar/CO2 mixtures - Ar/5%CO2 for sheet metal (equiv. "Argoshield Light"), - Ar/12%CO2 for general steelwork (equiv "Argoshield Unviersal") - Ar/25%CO2 for thick plate (equiv "Argoshield Heavy")

- Pure CO2 for MIG for deep pen. though messy(?)

Can you set the Ar and CO2 reducing valves to the same pressure then have flow-meters showing say 7litres-per-min. for Ar and 1litre-per-minute of CO2 to get 8l.p.m of Ar/12.5%CO2?

Richard Smith

Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen writes:

Now I feel doubly blessed living where I do. I just bought my 6th bottle for $35 from one of my pet machine tool dealers, and have them filled with a variety of gases. A 135cf argon fill is $20 USD...the CO2 are $12.....

Many machine tool dealers will buy an entire shop or factory and sell off the Stuff..and my guys would rather not hassle with the bottles...so I get em.

My last 2 (135cf) bottles cost $50 for the pair..one filled with

2.5% Co2, 7.5% Argon and 90% Helium. A masking tape lable says Stainless Steel..so Im assuming its for MIG. Makes great helium ballons for the grand daughter The other one is filled with C25.

All are within hydro date.

Now I just need to find a tank of nitrogen for the plasma cutter..sigh....

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

That's the way I'm currently doing it but there are a few kinks. One is to not have to much hose between the welder and the flow gauges. Another is to have some check valves to prevent back mixing. In truth I'm still trying to fine tune my system so that I can get consistent results. Currently I still have a little to much of a rush of gas out the nozzle when I pull the trigger which causes a bit of a rough start on MIG.

Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX

It's currently just under £40 + VAT to rent the smallest size of bottle (BOC Size X - Aprox 6"dia x 3' tall) for a year. A refill of Puresheild Argon (99.999% argon) is just under £50. A refill of Argosheild Universal is just over £30. Those prices include the £9.95 'collection charge' (yes, we get charged for the privelege of taking the bottle to them to get a refill) When I say refill, they just swap the bottle for a new one (that's one benefit of rented bottles) If we take the bottle back before the year's up, we get refunded for the remaining rental period.

I'm sure the requirement to rent is something to do with the rules and regulations regarding high pressure vessels. You've got to buy normal LPG cylinders though, but they're not seeing pressures anywhere near your typical.

Only one that could do both is Pure Argon (Pureshield, if BOC use the same name down under).

It would be exactly what BOC recommend for most TIG welding. For MIG it would work, but it wouldn't be pretty. You really need that trace of oxygen to burn the impurites out the weld. The Co2 is needed to get a hotter weld, which isn't so important when welding thin metal, but makes a major difference when welding thicker metal.

Moray seems to be on to it.......

I asked B O C what to do and here is their email response .... ( they would prefer you rent another bottle )

QUOTE ....... " Dear Greg,

The only gas that can be used for both MIG & TIG welding would be welding grade argon

Helium and argon helium mixes can also be used but are extremely expensive and generally, only used for specific materials such as aluminium & stainless steels

Although argon will work fine with TIG there are limitations with its use in the MIG process..

Lack of Co2 as used with Universal will result in a colder arc temperature, resulting in less penetration, a higher bead profile and the toe of the weld (edge of the fillet) becoming prone to cracking

Co2 also helps burn contaminants out of the weld pool such as light rust, zinc etc, without Co2 these materials may become entrapped in the weld resulting in lower strength joints

Oxygen, as supplied in Universal as well creates a more fluid slower freezing weld that works with Co2 in removing contaminants and producing a flatter weld profile

On heavier section materials (3mm+) fusion and penetration will be severely compromised

Regards,

Bill Stitt Technical Services & Training BOC Limited Ph: 131 262 Fax: 132 427 Web:

" .............. END QUOTE

I'm tempted to do some decanting , in to a non registered bottle ,that can be found , but not refilled by BOC unless you pay up.....

You guys really get screwed on gasses.

I own my 80cf Argon cylinder and get it swapped for a full one for like $25 US. No rental, no "collection charge", no hydro test, etc. Worst I ever have to do is call a day in advance since they don't always have the 80cf size on hand.

One time when I ran out and they didn't have an 80cf on hand, they loaned me a smaller cyl at no charge to keep me running until they got the 80cf in the next day.

You've got to do something about changing whatever regulations are causing your excessive prices.

Pete C.

Yes, but only TERRORISTS would ever need to own gas bottles, wouldn't they ?

Nope, they don't care if they own the bottles. After they blow themselves up, who is BOC going to collect the bottle rent from?

Pete C.

Is this really true ? Now I know the problems of using pure argon for MIG on steel, but doesn't an Ar/CO2 mix solve this ?

Half the refs I have (and half the gas dealers) tell me that for fabrication work on light clean steel I just need an Ar/CO2 mix and I only need to add O2 if I'm using it on stainless. The other half are pushing me towards tri-gas mixtures (like COOGAR) for everything.

Andy:

This might be of interest to you

This guy basically states that trimix is just marketting. CO2/Argon is all you need.

He states that but I wonder myself. I tried it on a big stainless job I had in the shop. It worked pretty good for spray arc. However most of the job was thin stock and needed short arc. The problem there is stainless short arc calls for a short stick out. With the high argon low co2 mixture the arc really liked to go to the tip. I melted a good number tips on that job.

Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX