Dying in the R/C Hobby?

Don't worry, Frank. Most R/C'ers THINK they build a lot more than they really do. There are probably enough unbuilt kits stashed away in all our workshops to keep the future R/C community busy for years. :-)

Good flying, desmobob

Frank Schwartz wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Hobby market is extremely fragile and shop owners will stock what sells. There are still kits if you are willing to mail order. For the builder, Hobby-Lobby has a .15 size stick model for $25 with 55" span, should be a floater and good trainer:

It is reminiscient of the venerable Scientific Coronet of yesteryear updated for R/C.

Amateur radio has gone through similar changes.

Once upon a time, you were expected to know at least rudimentary electronics and the Morse Code. Both have nearly disappeared as requirements and both are certainly on the list to be dropped entirely.

So what is left? Glorified CB. That's it.

Ditto models, hot rods and myriad other hobbies that required thought and manual dexterity.

Of course, I suspect that new hobbies are being born all of the time, but I doubt if there is any emphasis on manual dexterity. If so, please let me know what they are, as I do not have a clue.

Ed Cregger

Guitar wrangling still requires manual dexterity.... :)

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

---------------

Right you are, sir. How could I have forgotten that?

Ed Cregger

Ted shuffled out of his cave and grunted these great (and sometimes not so great) words of knowledge:

Unfortunately, I feel you are correct. Even the few kits that are out there appear to be too complicated for a great many modelers.

As for myself, since I like "unusual" planes, I usually have to wind up scratch building them. Thank God for Cleveland Model and Supply. They have a good number of plans for "unusual" planes. Since these plans were designed/drawn for rubber free flight they do require some modification for RC usage, but that is usually minimal.

Some of my "unusual" planes include a Bellanca Airbus, Transavia PL-12 (Airtruk) and am presently working on a Boeing P-26 'Pea Shooter'. These are all 40 size planes (The few INTERESTING kits and ARFS out there are almost never in anything smaller than a 60 size and many require a 91 or larger)

Take heart, Frank. Scratch building and kit building won't ever die off completely. It's just that the hobby has been turned on its head since the good old days.

Ten or twenty years ago (longer for those who remember), building was the cost of admission to the hobby. If you wanted to learn to fly, you either bought plans or a kit for your first trainer and constructed it so you could fly. I have a sneaking suspicion that club auctions were wildly popular because so many would-be pilots preferred buying somebody else's pre-built planes rather than building their own even back before the emergence of ARFs on the scene.

Now folks fly first and build later. People who want to learn to fly R/C, but who might be intimidated by the extra skill and effort required to build a trainer kit, can simply buy a RTF trainer package from Hangar 9, Hobbico, or Thunder Tiger. These are the same folks who would have waited to buy other people's kit-built trainers back before the advent of the ARF and the RTF glow packages.

Some of these folks will try flying R/C planes and give up after a mishap or two; a percentage of them, however, will really enjoy the hobby and will want to advance beyond their basic RTF trainer.

Perhaps these new enthusiasts will long to fly something different from the run-of-the-mill ARFs that are available. Perhaps they'll simply crash two or three ARFs and then wonder what to do with all of the spare fuel tanks and wheels they're collecting. Eventually the challenge of kits and/or scratch building will call out to these budding enthusiasts.

Anyone who has belonged to an AMA-sanctioned R/C flying club for a while knows there have always been folks who don't build. ARFs and RTFs didn't change anything, they just recognized the already strong market for pre-built or mostly built kits.

Kits and scratch building will be around for as long as modellers continue to want something different, unusual, or uncommon to fly.

It's OK Frank, I got into RC flying about 4 months ago. I bought a simulator on the advice of my local hobby shop, my older brother scoffed as he did it the hard way. After a week on the sim I bought an ARF trainer, 46AX and 6EXA and was landing solo first day. I then bought the Great Planes Cub kit and spent the next three months building it at the same time as continuing to learn to fly my trainer. The kit was one of the most satisfying things I have ever done and my hobby shop owner mocked me when I asked him to order it in. The Cub's first flight was something special and I love it still after a month of flying. I plan to learn how to scratch build and a couple of the old timers at the club just cant believe it.

I'm glad about ARFs as they got me into this hobby quickly with little disappointment but I know that I will build kits and get the most satisfaction from them as anyone can put an ARF together.

My Heavens! What a refreshing letter! Guys, I think we ought to capture Gary, have him stuffed and set him up inside a glass display cabinet at the AMA museum as an example that it still can be done...that is, a fellow can enjoy taking pieces of flat stuff to make a real-looking airplane that flies like one. I don't know if Gary would go for this but he certainly can see my logic.

Ken

Would the owner not order a kit for you? If not he is a jerk. Still a number of kits to chose from including some oldies such as the Goldberb Falcon.

I'm sure there are those out there who will mock me (Electric!??! Hah. Not REAL R/C...grmuble, grumble...) but...

I started my kid on the FMS (free) simulator. Then we bought a Firebird Outlaw and quickly tired of it, esp. since it was more or less impossible to do repairs, but was easy to damage. If I were recommending the hobby to anyone else, I'd tell 'em to skip that part. Then we began building ... using fanfold foam. The things we build don't "look like full scale aircraft," but that's because we're interested in flying, not in making scale-model reproductions or prettying things up. We're in awe of some of the things we've seen at a few flying fields, but have no interest in spending the time building those. We just like flying and learning. And from all appearances, there are a LOT of others doing the same thing (one need only visit ezonemag or rcgroups to see it).

So...is the building part of the hobby dying? Nope. Not necessarily. It's just changing. And part of the change is happening out there in the parks rather than at your flying fields, and it's happening on the internet and not in the magazines.

Some skills that used to matter don't anymore. Sorta like one of my other hobbies, sailing. I know how to knot and splice three-strand manila line, but there hasn't been much call for that lately. I can use a sextant to find my position...but there hasn't been much call for that, either. I know how to plank a hull pretty tightly...but new materials make that pointless in general. I even know, to some degree, how canvas sails should be treated...but it hasn't proven very important in the last 35 years or so. Lovely knowledge, and I still enjoy taking a sight and figuring out a line of position with a sextant ... but I don't laugh at new sailors who can't do it. THEY can sail a modern dinghy a lot faster than I can...

--John

| Once upon a time, you were expected to know at least rudimentary electronics | and the Morse Code. Both have nearly disappeared as requirements and both | are certainly on the list to be dropped entirely.

Morse code, yes, the FCC is looking to drop it as a testing requirement, and many other governments already have, but that doesn't mean that people won't still be using CW.

Rudimentary electronics knowledge is still required to pass the tests, and I know of no plans to remove this requirement. Do you? And of course you still need to know a little bit about it to hook up your power, your antennas, etc. -- nevermind what the testing is about.

(Granted, the electronics knowledge needed now IS pretty rudimentary, but I'm not disagreeing with on on that.)

Why do people get so worked up about the FCC's amateur radio tests test? It's not like the tests are intended to mirror what is done with ham radio or something. (Not that I'm really sure what the purposes of the tests are, beyond to keep out the riff-raff. In fact, that's probably the only reason the tests are there.)

| So what is left? Glorified CB. That's it.

Even CB generally requires (or at least benefits from) some electical knowledge. Not much is required, but some.

| Of course, I suspect that new hobbies are being born all of the time, but I | doubt if there is any emphasis on manual dexterity. If so, please let me | know what they are, as I do not have a clue.

Video games?

In any event, kit building is not going away any time soon. Sure, you might have to order a kit rather than buy it on an impulse at your hobby shop, but that doesn't mean they're gone. As long as there is a demand for kits, people will produce them.

And even if the kits went away entirely (which they won't), couldn't people still build from scratch? I wonder what the general sentiment looked like back when kits started coming out? I can make a guess ...

We had to find our own wood, cut it ourselves to match their plans, etc. -- and yet people are now buying pre-cut wood with plans, all to assemble a plane? These new people obviously aren't *real* modelers

-- real modelers cut their own wood!

Of course, it probably goes back even further ...

You built your planes with *plans*? Blasphemy! Real modelers design their own planes, then build them themselves. All they had to do is buy wood and glue at the store ...

You bought wood and glue at the store? Luxury! We had to grow our own trees, and had to convert our horses to glue in our kitchens!

You had trees and horses?!?! What opulence! We had to build our planes from rocks and to use mud to hold them together ...

You had rocks and mud!?! ...

heheh... Ask my son and his answer would be "My X-Box!"

To get back on topic... I gotta be honest and admit I like the building more than the actual flying. Taking a box of balsa and plywood and making a flying craft from it is very satisfying. I just scratch built my 1st foamie and even that was pretty cool as I had to learn a few new techniques. (It's fun to fly as well!)

My 1st scratch built plane was a 1/2a pattern place called the Talon. I got the plans from RCM back in the late 80s.. Ace foam wings and some balsa stock, Cox .049 w/throttle.. Thing flew like a bat outta hell and could turn around seemingly in it's own wingspan if ya threw it over on it's side and hauled the elevator stick back to the stop.

While I doubt I'll ever draw up plans and scratch build a model that way, I"m sure I'll peruse the RCM plans catalogue (or Cleveland's) and find something interesting to build in the future.

I've had a Top Flite Gold P51D Mustang kit in my posession for about

20 years and I pulled the shrink wrap off of it over the weekend.. I think I'm gonna break it out and start building it this summer and see how accurate I can make it. Just reading the instructions makes it seem like a daunting project, but one I don't think I can resist.

I'm sure I'll need some assistance from some of the "old codgers" at the local club, but isn't that what the club is for? How many join clubs for the social aspects as well as the access to the flying field?

Gary wrote: I got into RC flying about 4 months ago. I bought a simulator on the advice of my local hobby shop, my older brother scoffed as he did it the hard way. After a week on the sim I bought an ARF trainer, 46AX and 6EXA and was landing solo first day. I then bought the Great Planes Cub kit and spent the next three months building it at

the same time as continuing to learn to fly my trainer. The kit was one of the most satisfying things I have ever done and my hobby shop owner mocked me when I asked him to order it in. The Cub's first flight was something special and I love it still after a month of flying. I plan to learn how to scratch build and a couple of the old timers at the club just cant believe it.

I'm glad about ARFs as they got me into this hobby quickly with little disappointment but I know that I will build kits and get the most satisfaction from them as anyone can put an ARF together.

My comment: GOOD ON YOU!

I hope you stick with it and it becomes a lifelong passion (obsession might be the word used by your friends and family).

If you want to get into scratch-building from plans, you already have what you need.... build another Cub from the plans for the old one. Pick up some plans at the next swap meet and start your brother worrying. Better yet, turn to him and say "why don't we build a couple ..... ".

Keep using the simulator and practicing. Don't laugh, but the indoor 3d guys in the club are using them all the time to practice. You can see the difference with the members who are trying to pick it up by flying alone. That way, you can figure out if a particular type of model is right for you and where you want to go (scale, pattern, plyon, 3d, or just plain having fun boring holes in the sky.)

John, you really make some good points but because I wanted to disagree with you, I started looking for something you wrote I could take issue with. I can't. I know exactly what you mean about the sailing...anyone interested in a good darkroom enlarger? Besseler 23C? And I have some good SLRs with a passel of lenses. The material we use in models is changing and now we need a degree in Adhesive Science (I just made that up) to know what stick'um to use with what material. Reliable systems and cheap materials encourage a lot of experimenting that we just weren't that interested in trying when we were stick and tissue builders. The same can be said of full-size aircraft, too, relative to composite material skinned on foam wings. But some of us are just dying a painful death. "Look what I made!" isn't said that often on the field anymore. And when it is, what they made is not something to brag about...other than it does fly...with enough power. It is a broad hobby and changing by the day, it seems. Yet, I am enjoying flying rudder only each afternoon while walking our little dog around the block. This is with a model I would have a tough time duplicating in my super-duper model shop...with three 8' long wing boards.

Keep'em flying!

Ken

I griped about the demise of amateur radio as I know it. Yet, every day, there are people obtaining their licenses with hopes of meeting other people in other parts of the world via radio. That is the essence of amateur radio. Just as flying is the essence of radio controlled model aircraft. That part has not changed much, other than to have improved considerably.

What we old timers learned via exposing our aircraft and egoes to the possibility of crashing while training, folks today can learn from a safe computer flight simulation program. While the simulator programs are not perfect examples of reality, they do impart enough useful knowledge to make using them a very wise move.

I used to be considered a pretty good pilot. Today, kids that have learned the basics during simulator training can out fly this old geezer with ease. The respect that I used to command no longer exists when I break out my models, as it did in times long past. Granted, most of the respect was in my own noggin', but it was there, none the less.

No one likes for all of their hard won knowledge to be made obsolete. No one likes to be relegated to the dinosaur bin of irrelevance. But that is the way that it is. Knowing that today's flyers will inevitably face the same pickle that we old timers are facing today is of no consolation. I feel sorry for them too. After all, they are our kids.

We need to remember the fundamental reason that most of us began flying in the first place - the love of flight. We need to forget about our hard earned, but outmoded, skills and our former place in the pecking order. Those things are not relevant these days. But the love of flight remains and is as exciting as ever. Rather than bitch and carouse about changes, I've decided to jump aboard the electric movement's wagon train. No, I'm not giving up on IC flying - yet...

Ed Cregger

Instant gratification has become the order of the day. People don't want to have to work for the things they want, and the success of ARFs and RTFs is based on that. We have instant everything now, from model building to music lessons ("Learn In One Week!",Yeah, right) to easy weight loss programs. I used to build a lot of electronic projects when I was younger, but the places (like Radio Shack) that used to sell bits and pieces, or could at least order them in, just sell complete electronic toys now. A guy has to seek out the obscure electronics parts suppliers to get what he needs. I'm also involved in the homebuilt aircraft movement, another stark example of how scratch-building has morphed into quick-build kits, many of which are assembled by specialists who are paid by the rich kit buyers to put them together. Seems that people have either time or money, seldom both. I have neither. When we were kids we entertained ourselves building wooden go karts, playing with old lawnmowers and chainsaws and motorbikes and cars, making them go and exposing ourselves to hazards that would have the current crop of parents wetting their pants. Kids are now expected to sit safely in front of the TV or computer or XBox, where they don't develop the same sort of curiosity nor experience the same satisfaction of creating something.

Dan