First Plane Needed....Please make suggestions

Yes, I think that whole thing is an industry plot to be sure everyone spends money buying a high-wing Cessna look-alike. (My R/C trainer was a Stick, and with control throws moderated, it worked just fine in that role.)

Now that you mention it, I'm sure that's a possibility. I've come to realize that the main reason I keep the glow stuff is nostalgia, and more and more, nostalgia ain't what it used to be...

Electric cannot match the performance of IC on anywhere near a level cost playing field. You would have to factor in a lot of fuel to get the costs close.

For example, what would the equivalent electric cost to equal the power of a YS 1.10 FZ? What would the setup cost be if you wanted to have three 10 minute flights with a 5 minute break between them?

Electrics are making advances leaps and bounds but are still better at the lower end of the power spectrum. I just ordered an AXI 2820/10 brushless motor and Phoenix 45A controller that will be almost equivalent to an FP-40 in useable power (10X6 at about 9500 RPMs). It cost $200. Now I will need a couple of $150.00 batteries and a good charger. I will be into it for over $500. I am not complaining as I want to go to electrics for the convenience. I just don't delude myself that it will be as economical.

Do it the way you want to. If you want to get training at a club, do. They often have trainers that you can borrow. Or you can teach yourself in the local park an hour after leaving the shop with one of these RTF packages. It will give you a flavour, and teach you a lot, without having to comitt to the sport if you're not going to like it, or if you just want to have fun rather than feeling that you need to be "real man".

K.

| Electric cannot match the performance of IC on anywhere near a level | cost playing field. You would have to factor in a lot of fuel to | get the costs close.

They certainly can, but just on the smaller end of the spectrum.

Think of a speed 400 motor vs. a Norvell 0.061 ... the power is comparable, and the prices are too, though the Norvell will have a edge if you require three battery packs.

| For example, what would the equivalent electric cost to equal the | power of a YS 1.10 FZ? What would the setup cost be if you wanted | to have three 10 minute flights with a 5 minute break between them?

A YS 1.10 FZ is ... big. Glow is a lot cheaper there.

With a small 180 sized gear motor and LiPo batteries, you can have a plane that will fly 30 minutes -- so there goes your 3 10 minute flights with 5 minute breaks criteria right there, though the breaks are optional :)

You can get a speed 180 motor, gear box, esc and LiPo battery for approximately the cost of an equivilent glow motor, fuel tank and servo to control the throttle.

Electric is cost effective for small models. For larger models, the battery costs skyrocket ...

Which is exactly what I said: "Electrics are making advances leaps and bounds but are still better at the lower end of the power spectrum.". You managed to leave that part out in your selective quote.

A 1.10 FZ is middle of the road. About the same size as you would use in a .60-.90 two stroke application.

Try to even compare average .46 glow power with electric. You will be spending $200+ for motor and controller and another $150 for each battery for each 10 minute flight. Not to mention charger.

A speed 180 motor is a laugh. Any plane it would fly would be almost restricted to indoor use or nearly dead calm days. You would also be restricted to micro RC gear which drives the cost up. That is near the extreme end of the RC spectrum.

Once you leave the realm of the small can motors behind, the cost of the motor, controller AND batteries skyrocket. After the $15.00 Speed 600 can motor, the next jump is brushless motors at $60-100. Controllers jump from about $20-30 up to $80 for brushless. You now need to supply 30-40 amps which means $150 batteries. It starts getting very costly to get this kind of performance.

I am looing into getting the cost of the motors down to about 60% of current prices if I can convince a friend to make them. I will be offering batteries at about 20-30% less than current prices as soon as I return to the US. Doing business in the UK is a big ripoff with all the taxes and fees.

"Paul McIntosh" wrote in news:42a22c47$0$1722$ed2e19e4 @ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net:

The 'extreme' end is well below 180. I fly a lot of IPS-powered planes, for comparison, and the 'micro' gear I use really isn't much more expensive than standard stuff. Balsa Products carries those Blue Arrow 4.3 gm servos for under $15 each, and the Bluebird 4.1s are $19. That's less than I pay for servos in my glow planes. For my typical IPS-powered plane (and an IPS motor is about half the size of a Speed 180), I have a $14 motor, a $11 ESC, 2 servos at @18, a LiPo battery (and a spare) @$15 each, and a $21 receiver with a $9 xtal, for a grand total of $121. I doubt that you can put together a throttled glow system (engine + radio flight pack) for much less than that, at any size.

And my little IPS planes fly outside just fine, thank you. They won't win any races, and probably not any aerobatics contests, either, but I have fun with 'em anyway.

.....and they're probably a lot better for a beginner than anything else, too. Which is, after all, what the thread is about.

Agreed, BUT there are other issues that you need to consider.

That rig (which is actually about as good as a 40 4stroke, or a 25 type

2stroke) does not need

- a fuel tank

- an expensive engine mount

- a throttle servo

- a battery to spin the motor and pump fuel

- fuel

- starter

- glo clip

- replacement plugs

- an overheavy model capable of withstanding the vibration from a single cylinder finger-cutter.

- a coat of fuel proofer..

and all the rest of the paraphernalia that goes with fuel models

AND the packs as such can be shared between other similar power level models.

Agreed you need one or more decent chargers, and possibly one or more packs.

Out of interest, what RPM/prop will a YS 1.10 deliver? and how much does it cost, and weigh, and how much fuel does it burn for a 15 minute flight? And how much does that fuel cost?

You would be surprised actually...micro racers and aerobats that will handle moderate wind and do 30-40mph are not that hard.

If you pick and choose your motors and run them sensibly, they can be very inexpensive indeed. A geared 600 is about as good as a .19 or .25 in a not-too-fast model. They are $10 motors.

You noticed ;)

Motors are getting cheaper all the time. But a decent brushed motor is not THAT expesnive. The Astro Cobalt 40 - more or less a 40 equivalent - is a mere $129. That will turn a 10x6 at 12000 RPM

A 20 cell nickel pack for that is about $100

a 6s2p pack of LIPOS to power it might be around $200..or maybe only $120 using yor cells.

A controller from astro is $75.

I run IPS with 2 HS55 9 gram servos, or three GWS pico servos at 5Gm. Cost UK is about £12 per servo. I use JETI REX 4 receivers at about 9gm ..

Using 3s LIPO pack (3x Kokam 350) I get a half hour of flying, and with appropriate gearing, up to 30mph flying speed on 30-40" planes. Its about a cox 020 or an old .5cc diesel type performance.

I've crammed up to .09 equivalent electric setups into 30" planes as well. Very chaap and very exciting.

The Natural Philosopher wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@eunomia.uk.clara.net:

ohh I haven't had the courage to put 3 cells on my IPS motors - they get pretty hot with 2. I'm going to guess that you're using smaller props than I am - what prop are you using?

| is this a joke? with friends like these..... | if it has aerobatic or 3d in the name and or description, it will | make a truly bad trainer I doubt a newbie could fly that plane for | 10 seconds.

To be fair, the `Great Planes U-Can-Do 3D Flight-Flex EP ARF 33.5"' wouldn't be _that_ bad if the control throws were turned way down, and the endpoint on the throttle in the radio was set to not give you more than 50% throttle or so. The only thing really missing would be some dihedral.

A 3D plane isn't an ideal trainer, but most do slow down nicely, and that's pretty important for a trainer. Being a foamie, it would survive most crashes, though if you're going to learn by yourself without an instructor, I'd suggest a pusher plane -- something with the prop in the back.

| I recommend GWS slowstik, Tiger Moth or Beaver.

The problem with all of these planes (including the UCanDo3D) is that you'll break props with most crashes (unless you use a prop saver, which probably isn't a bad idea) and many crashes will also break the gearbox and/or motor mount, or bend the drive shaft on the motor, requiring a new motor.

I'd suggest something like the Soarstar or the Wingo.

Lots of people have learned with pusher flying wings like the Zagi

400, and while they are pretty tough (even a lot tougher than the Soarstar) they also fly faster than the other planes listed here, and they have some pretty bad flight habits that can easily frustrate newbies.

If at all possible, get somebody who knows R/C planes to help with your first few flights, no matter what you fly. You may not need a formal instructor with a buddy box if you pick one of the electric foamies, but having somebody help you with trimming, center of gravity and such can save you lots and lots of frustration. Some of these things are really important, and yet not really covered in the plane's instructions ...

| news: snipped-for-privacy@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... | > Thanks guys. A friend just recommended this thing...Whaddya think? | >

| >

Don't put too much stock into what this friend suggests :)

A real plane ? , a real man ?, crap ? C'mon now. :-) .Check to see who's winning national and international competition and with what. Jason Schulmam finished 7th in the 2003 F3A world championships with an electric powered pattern plane completing against a field of glow aircraft. He has since won numerous first places. Jason was the first name that came to mind , but there are many others in all sorts of competition flying electic. Nothing wrong with glow. I still have a few and I had glow back in the

50's. Both have their good and bad points , but electric is closing the gap very quickly.

Ken Day

Fly them when there is a 10-15 MPH breeze and run to catch up with them. Sure, they fly outside just fine, in dead calm weather. Very few days like that here.

And a 180 is at the estreme end just as an .049 is at the extreme end of glow COMPARED TO THE RANGE AVAILABLE. Sure, you can get .010 if you want it. Same limitations as the tiny electrics you speak of.

Yes it does and the "tank" weighs as much full as empty.

EXPENSIVE??? The mount for the AXI was $14.00! I can buy 4 glow motor mounts for that.

No, you need a $80 controller instead of a $10 servo.

Don't NEED either of those.

For $300 in batteries, I get two flights then wait for recharge. $300 in fuel buys a couple hundred back-to-back flights of longer duration. And current technology for high discharge LiPos is getting about 100 recharges before you drop below the 80% capacity mark so you don't make up the price difference.

I didn't pay anything for my finger. How much did yours cost! ;^)

$3.95

$3-4 every few months

Finger cutter? Electrics are far more dangerous in that whenever the battery is connected, the potential is there. Glow motors will also stop if they meet sufficient resistance. Electrics keep on going and going and going at very high torque levels.

A model capable of withstanding a little more abuse. Crashes with electrics tend to do a LOT more damage because of the heavy "fuel" tank in the lighter airframe. Not to mention the fact that glow motors are far more robust than the fragile electrics.

Less than $1.00

But not until they are recharged

It will turn a range of props depending on what you want to do with it. Most common are 14X10 and 15X8 for aerobatic planes at around 9-10,000RPMs. Cost for the engine is around $325. A guess at the weight is 25oz. I couldn't guess at fuel consumption.

Go ahead and TRY to do the numbers. The cost for equivalent performance electrics will be staggering. I looked into it.

But they do not offer the same performance level. They can ONLY power slower models.

You have just made my point again. Being able to swing a 10X6 at that speed is easy for $75 glow motors. Actually, many do a lot better. The electric cost was $300 for one flight and didn't include the cost of a charger. The whole system also weighs a lot more.

Ted shuffled out of his cave and grunted these great (and sometimes not so great) words of knowledge:

For comparable power to a YS110, you are absolutely correct. The cost would be astronomical. On the other hand MANY people fly just 40 or 60 size glow planes.

For a 40 size plane it is a LOT DIFFERENT. You can get a 3D 40 size plane easily capable of 10 minute flights on a 10 cell nimh pack for under $500 (includes EVERYTHING [1 10 cell pack] except the battery charger). Check the link

Then click on prices then on Mega USA 3D. $395 for the setup, plus about $60 for the pack and shipping - less than $500. Glo plane with a 46 engine

- MOST are about $350 plus shipping - say less than $400 with shipping.

Both glow and electric have advantages and disadvantages. I am not going to argue that point at all.

All I am saying is that for 40 size performance and flight duration the costs are not that far apart.

see

Mmm. Astro cobalt 90 is in the ball park, $319... Controller $75

Probably need about 12s2p LIPOS - say 24 cells at $18 each. $432

So a tad over $800, but no fuel costs.