First Plane Needed....Please make suggestions

Paul McIntosh wrote:


Agreed, BUT there are other issues that you need to consider.
That rig (which is actually about as good as a 40 4stroke, or a 25 type 2stroke) does not need
- a fuel tank - an expensive engine mount - a throttle servo - a battery to spin the motor and pump fuel - fuel - starter - glo clip - replacement plugs - an overheavy model capable of withstanding the vibration from a single cylinder finger-cutter. - a coat of fuel proofer..
and all the rest of the paraphernalia that goes with fuel models
AND the packs as such can be shared between other similar power level models.
Agreed you need one or more decent chargers, and possibly one or more packs.
Out of interest, what RPM/prop will a YS 1.10 deliver? and how much does it cost, and weigh, and how much fuel does it burn for a 15 minute flight? And how much does that fuel cost?
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Yes it does and the "tank" weighs as much full as empty.

EXPENSIVE??? The mount for the AXI was $14.00! I can buy 4 glow motor mounts for that.

No, you need a $80 controller instead of a $10 servo.

Don't NEED either of those.

For $300 in batteries, I get two flights then wait for recharge. $300 in fuel buys a couple hundred back-to-back flights of longer duration. And current technology for high discharge LiPos is getting about 100 recharges before you drop below the 80% capacity mark so you don't make up the price difference.

I didn't pay anything for my finger. How much did yours cost! ;^)

$3.95
$3-4 every few months

Finger cutter? Electrics are far more dangerous in that whenever the battery is connected, the potential is there. Glow motors will also stop if they meet sufficient resistance. Electrics keep on going and going and going at very high torque levels.
A model capable of withstanding a little more abuse. Crashes with electrics tend to do a LOT more damage because of the heavy "fuel" tank in the lighter airframe. Not to mention the fact that glow motors are far more robust than the fragile electrics.

Less than $1.00

But not until they are recharged

It will turn a range of props depending on what you want to do with it. Most common are 14X10 and 15X8 for aerobatic planes at around 9-10,000RPMs. Cost for the engine is around $325. A guess at the weight is 25oz. I couldn't guess at fuel consumption.
Go ahead and TRY to do the numbers. The cost for equivalent performance electrics will be staggering. I looked into it.

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Paul McIntosh wrote:

Mmm. Astro cobalt 90 is in the ball park, $319... Controller $75
Probably need about 12s2p LIPOS - say 24 cells at $18 each. $432
So a tad over $800, but no fuel costs.

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And STILL only one flight! And a rather expensive charger or many less expensive ones and a lot of time charging or a huge investment in batteries.
Keep trying!
--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com
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Ted shuffled out of his cave and grunted these great (and sometimes not so great) words of knowledge:

For comparable power to a YS110, you are absolutely correct. The cost would be astronomical. On the other hand MANY people fly just 40 or 60 size glow planes.
For a 40 size plane it is a LOT DIFFERENT. You can get a 3D 40 size plane easily capable of 10 minute flights on a 10 cell nimh pack for under $500 (includes EVERYTHING [1 10 cell pack] except the battery charger). Check the link http://www.modelelectronicscorp.com/ Then click on prices then on Mega USA 3D. $395 for the setup, plus about $60 for the pack and shipping - less than $500. Glo plane with a 46 engine - MOST are about $350 plus shipping - say less than $400 with shipping.
Both glow and electric have advantages and disadvantages. I am not going to argue that point at all.
All I am saying is that for 40 size performance and flight duration the costs are not that far apart.
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Check the prices again. For $350 you should also be able to get a 4 channel radio with the glow ARTF. So add another $140 to the electric price. Just adding the motor, controller and gearbox to that ARTF added $280. Compare that to a $70 engine and a $10 servo.
I think the biggest ineqity here is still the motors. Most brushless motors are so stupidly simple that they should really cost no more than can motors. Battery costs will continue to come down. That leaves the controllers as the high cost items and I don't see them coming down much.
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Paul McIntosh
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| Check the prices again. For $350 you should also be able to get a 4 channel | radio with the glow ARTF. So add another $140 to the electric price. Just | adding the motor, controller and gearbox to that ARTF added $280. Compare | that to a $70 engine and a $10 servo.
Well, 0.40 sized is quite large for a `cheap' electric. The electric really shines at around 0.10 sized and smaller. For now. As things get cheaper, that will change.
| I think the biggest ineqity here is still the motors.
I don't. More later.
| Most brushless motors are so stupidly simple that they should really | cost no more than can motors.
That much is true. And in fact many people do rewind CD-ROM motors and make their own brushless motors and they work quite well, apparently.
| Battery costs will continue to come down. That leaves the controllers as | the high cost items and I don't see them coming down much.
Actually, the motors themselves, even the brushless ones, are the cheapest part once you get above a certain size.
It's the controllers that really get expensive, especially once you start getting into the higher amperage setups, and of course the batteries, expecially if you want more than one pack.
Generally the motor + controller, even for a brushless, seem to work out to about the same cost as an appropriate 4 stroke for the same plane once you get above 0.60 sized or so. (And once you get that large, you might as well just go brushless, because anything you save in the motor+controller department you'll pay for in the need for bigger batteries.)
Here's a good example for you, though it's only a 0.40 sized plane --
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/telemaster40.htm
they suggest a $100 brushless motor, with a $120 brushless controller and a $140 LiPo pack for this plane. As you get even larger, the cost of the motor goes up a little, the controller up some more, and the battery pack cost goes up linearally with the size of the plane -- doubling the size of the plane will roughly double the cost of the pack.
For comparison, an OS FS-70 four stroke would probably work well for this plane too, and the cost would be $210 at Tower Hobbies. (Though I suspect that the OS FS-52 might as well, at only $200.)
--
Doug McLaren, snipped-for-privacy@frenzy.com
Captain Zapp Brannigan : Kif, I'm feeling the Captain's Itch.
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Paul McIntosh wrote: -snip-

Can motors are made by the gazzilion, don't have ball bearings, and don't have rare-earth magnets. I do see brushless motor pricing going down as more players enter the market. I don't think they'll get to be as inexpensive as can motors unless they start getting made as cheaply as can motors (and no, inexpensive and cheap are not the same word).
I also think that as brushless motors get more common you'll start seeing cheaply made ones cropping up. The first journal-bearinged, ferrite magnet brushless motor will be an eye-opener for anybody who thinks that "brushless" means "really good".
------------------------------------------- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com
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Tim,
What I was referring to is the complete lack of complexity in a brushless motor. It eliminates the brushes, brush holders, springs, commutator, the solder joints and all the rest of the assembly needed to manage the brushed setup. After a bit of practice I would bet that most of the brushless motors could be assembled in a few minutes.
Granted, the magnets are a LITTLE more, but $40 more for a 400 size motor?
Ball bearings are $.20 each in small quantities. Machinig costs are the same whether you press in a bushing or a bearing.
Point being you can get a speed 400 equivalent brushless kit for $15.00. Add an hour of your time and you have a completed brushless motor. Kinda hard to justify $50-60 for a factory built one.
I think where the market would explode is if a company made matched sets of no-frills controllers and motors. Right now controllers have to be made to accomodate a wide variety of voltage and current requirements.
--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com
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Tim Wescott wrote:

They are getting that way already. The Himaxx range is popular, but frankly its no more efficient than a GOOD ferrite brushed motor, although its a bit lighter.

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Do it the way you want to. If you want to get training at a club, do. They often have trainers that you can borrow. Or you can teach yourself in the local park an hour after leaving the shop with one of these RTF packages. It will give you a flavour, and teach you a lot, without having to comitt to the sport if you're not going to like it, or if you just want to have fun rather than feeling that you need to be "real man".
K.

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On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:05:24 -0400, "George Thomas"

A real plane ? , a real man ?, crap ? C'mon now. :-) .Check to see who's winning national and international competition and with what. Jason Schulmam finished 7th in the 2003 F3A world championships with an electric powered pattern plane completing against a field of glow aircraft. He has since won numerous first places. Jason was the first name that came to mind , but there are many others in all sorts of competition flying electic. Nothing wrong with glow. I still have a few and I had glow back in the 50's. Both have their good and bad points , but electric is closing the gap very quickly.
Ken Day
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Thanks for all the input guys. Think I will go with the Easystar setup to find out if I even want to seriously get into this form of RC....If I do become addicted and decide to move up to something else, rest assured that you guys will be the first I ask. Thanks again and please feel free to make more recommendations....I haven't ordered the Easystar yet.
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I have never flown an r/c airplane other than crashing an old aerobir
twice after it was in the air about 15 seconds each time. That wa several years ago. Since then, I have been driving an r/c stadiu truck. During this spring, I decided that I would try to fly again. have read this forum along with r/c universe for assistance i purchasing the proper "first" airplane. My local hobby shop i recommending either the Parkzone J-3 Cub or the Slo-V. Frankly depending upon which hobby shops I contact, these are the more commo responses, however, some say one over the other and vice versa. Other have recommended the T-Hawk. I have asked this question previousl somewhere on this site. I believe that I'm ready to purchase somethin and I am leaning towards a Parkzone product. Any suggestions and/o comments concerning these two (2) airplanes would be helpful. Than you
-- gf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- gfl's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&useridb00 View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid7806
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wrote:

I have a Parkzone Cub and Decathlon. These both fly great although they aren't stock. Bought replacement parts to build them so I wouldn't have to buy radio and all since I already have all that stuff. The Decathlon flies great with an Axi 2208/34 brushless and I'm sure it flies good with the stock motor , although I have yet to fly one thats stock. I've been helping a guy learn to fly on his Parkzone J-3 Cub which has the stock motor and radio that comes in the complete package. The Cub flies great with the stock setup. It's a barrel of fun and looks like a scale Cub in the air , and looks pretty darned good on the ground..
There are so many good planes out there it's hard to recommend just one , but I don't think you'll go wrong with either the Cub or Slo V. The cub is a little trickier to take off and I would suggest you get some help until you get used to it.
I would try to get help with either of these planes. It's nice to have someone there who can check it out , trim it for you and it's a great security blanket knowing you can pass the radio off if you have trouble.
A very big plus for these two is the looks , quality , and availability of parts. They're pretty tough and you can buy any little part on the aircraft.
Ken Day
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I think the Frog from www.foamfly.com is hard to beat: all foam, flie
slowly, takes a lot of abuse, easily repairable, inexpensive, availabl as an easy-to-build kit or as a plan. Check the web site for pix an videos
-- FirstShir ----------------------------------------------------------------------- FirstShirt's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&userida78 View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid7806
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