Soon I will be purchasing my first ever 20 pound propane bottle, for my 'forge under construction'. I have reason to believe some of them have a flow restricting device installed. If this is so, how does one make sure he is not getting such a bottle? Is there lettering or some descriptive warning that such a bottle has this safety device installed. I imagine there is no way to remove the device from a full bottle without transfering the gas to another bottle first. I will be running a Zoeller sidedraft 3/4" burner at max 10 psi, I understand. I don't know the consumption for this burner, but I have read that one does not want a bottle with a flow restrictor. Any advice will be appreciated...thanks.
Make sure the bottle was mfr'd later than 2002. IIRC, they had the flow restrictor in them from about 2000 to 2002. Shouldn't be a problem if it is a new bottle from a place that moves their stock often. Tell the seller that you need to run a weed burner. They put out about 500,000 btu/hr. That's about 5.5 gallons of propane per hour (500,000/90,000). If in doubt, go to a company that sells propane.
10 psi doesn't tell the whole story, its the flow that is the issue.
You may need to put your 20# bottle into a tub of water to keep it from freezing up if you run your forge for several hours at a time.
All bottles less than 30 gallons are controlled by the new valve.
The early valves were slow flow, but we have been told that that was fixed.
I know mine were so I bought a 30 gallon - like 3 BarBQ sized ones stacked on top. Just make sure your hose is long enough!
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot"s Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
"spaco" wrote in message news:i4mdnYfz8cUXOWDYnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@bright.net...
You know, between the time I started and now I've come to the conclusion that I over thought things in the beginning. TheChas dude, you come up with stuff I never thought of. I bought one brand new barbeque sized 5 gallon tank, filled it up and never had to give it a second thought. A buddy of mine gave me an old crappy old style tank and I took it to walmart and traded it in on an newer one full of fuel. They charged me an extra twelve bucks 'cause the one I gave them was outdated. Now I have two bottles that I keep a full one on reserve all the time. Never have a problem with over cooling except when the bottle is getting down to the last couple of gallons. I always think the bottle is about done and find out I can only get 3.5 gallons or so back into it. Maybe I could milk it along farther if I warmed it up but it isn't worth the trouble. Go get a full one. As for PSI, I've been using a needle valve all along. Later on I bought a used commercial forge and never did much like it. I played around with the pressure valve a while and came to the conclusion that it wasn't doing anything for me that the needle valve wasn't already doing. Maybe sweating the details is part of the fun. I just want a controllable atmosphere, efficient fuel consuption and a fire hot enough to do the work I want it to. A good torch and a tight forge takes care of that just fine. Knowing why things aren't working is helpfull when the time comes.
Supposedly the old style valve is still legal, just not on consumer equipment. Stuff like forklifts and industrial burners. Has to be clearly marked as such.
Supposedly.
If you want to be able to fill them or trade them in about anywhere, you might as well adapt your equipment to run on the new style OPD valve.
In Ca. The forklift are commercial and therefore are by default as is. The small 10 and 20 gallon and odd size ones one can buy at camping stores had to be changed out to new ones.
The large 30 could go either way, but I stated it was commercial for a furnace.
Saying a 10 for that could get you in hot water with more than the propane guy. It might be considered a homeland defense issue as well.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot"s Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
I've been running a 20# tank in mine, and Pete is right when he suggests floating it in a tub of water. I've had it running for extended (8-10 hour) periods and frozen a shallow tub of water solid long before emptying the tank. You can see the forge cooling down when it starts to freeze up- but refilling the water tub with fresh hot water out will get it back up and running pretty quickly.
One thing to consider if you're price checking is that a co-op will usually sell propane for a little less than Wal-Mart (though they are cheaper than the average gas station). I am guessing that you have one in your area, especially considering that you had to go to the neighboring town to get to a WalMart. What I did was buy a new tank from Farm and Fleet for $26 (empty), and then took it to the farmer's co-op in town where it can be refilled for $11, though I have exchanged it at gas stations and WalMart once or twice because I work nights and it is just more convenient sometimes.
Of course, with the freezing mentioned above, I have been searching around for one of those semi-elusive 100# tanks. If you have the cash and/or opportunity to nab a larger one, I would go for that- to save trips to get them refilled, if nothing else.
Homeland defense??? If you're concerned about keeping yourself out of trouble, it may make sense to be honest instead of making random excuses. If anyone asks what I need a propane tank for (and it did come up the first time I got it filled at the co-op in the middle of the winter), I just tell them it's for a blacksmithing forge. They don't care, but if I had made up something that didn't quite ring true for the heck of it, I probably would have gotten a nosy sheriff poking around looking for a meth lab. People might not know why you're lying- but they often can tell you are, and that is what gets a guy in trouble.
Less worry and trouble by far to just say it's for what you're using it for- and it's an interesting enough thing to be doing that people will occassionally go out of their way to make it easier for you to continue.
Just to clear up a point re two on the propane bottles: a "5 gallon" tank is also called a 20 pound tank. Propane tanks are only filled to 80% of capacity, so a "5 gallon" tank only holds 4 gallons. Since propane weighs 4.2 pounds per gallon, a full tank weighs about 16.8 pounds more than a completely empty one does. Take a look at the numbers stamped on the handle of the bottle. The highest number is the one that (should) tell refillers who when the tank is properly "full". Problems occurred when filling bottles by "gallons", when the refiller didn't really know how much propane was left. And especially when the temperature is real low. I think many people have gotten in trouble when they got a tank refilled (overfilled) at 20 below and then put it inside a heated vehicle. When the tank warmed up, it started to gas off.
Try not to confuse "20 pounds" with 20 gallons, etc..
I think one other poster talked about a 100 gallon tank. Maybe he meant a "100 pound" tank. A "100 pound" tank would be a 25 gallon tank.
WalMart charged $41.92 for a full tank without exchange. Local convenience store charged $43.99 for same. Saved 60 miles worth of gasoline by buying locally. WalMart was around $15 for a refill. I don't know what the local charges.
Farm supply stores carry 20 lb, 40 lb, and 100 lb propane tanks. The cheapest 100 lb tank here in Wichita, Kansas was at a store called Atwoods for $72 empty. I bought mine last year and took it to a RV campground to be filled and it cost me about $45. I usually use a coal forge, so I haven't used up the propane tank up. I'm sure it will cost more to refill it. I wouldn't use anything smaller than a 40 lb tank with a gas forge and my
In CA and other places - the tanks are 10 gallon, 20 gallon and 30 gallon. That is the container size. the 10 is the one seen in most stores for BarBQ's. In CA and most places the 10 and 20 are considered home sizes. Yes there are the really nice ones on forklifts - they cost more money than most tanks and then some...
In CA, only the 30 and the forklift sizes were using the old valve that would dump the bottle in no time flat. And if inverted, liquid would pour.
Now with the new tanks, inversion turns off the tank, so only the forklift and 30 gallon can dump liquid or allow a high flow of gas to escape.
I use a 30 gallon tank - the height of my tall Oxygen bottle to braze with and with my furnace.
Stating the weight - one must state temp and pressure. Assume a closed so pressure is given. Temp does change.
Normally tanks are filled two ways. By scale and by outgass. I let the propane dealer pick his method.
OBTW - tip - I use square milk containers - the large ones - a tank just fits inside. These are the carry 4 gallons type - often to the house - often in trucks. I've collected some here and there - and use them in the pickup tie them down and the bottles stand tall all the time.
Martin Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot"s Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
Not quite right. A 20 lb bottle does indeed hold 20 lbs of propane when properly filled. There are two major markings on the tank collar. "TW" is tare weight, what the bottle weighs empty. "WC" is the water capacity in pounds. The reason for that arcane unit of measure is probably lost to history. Part of the crap the state sends to its newly licensed dealers is a chart to convert WC to pounds of propane.
The proper and legal method of filling the tank is to put the tank on the scales, set the scale to the TW plus the rated capacity in pounds and fill until the scale arm balances. This practice automatically accommodates partially filled tanks. A partially filled 20 pound tank should weigh TW + 20 lbs regardless of how little propane it took to reach that weight.
An "acceptable but discouraged method" to use the State of TN's words, is to fill until liquid propane is discharged from the 80% valve. The problem with that is that if the propane is very cold and dense when dispensed then the tank can become overfilled when it warms up. That's why using the 80% valve is officially discouraged.
Right you are. It is "unacceptable" (getting caught will result in a fine and eventual yanking of the license for repeat offenses) to fill portable tanks by volume, e.g., gallons. It's also unacceptable practice to fill a bottle if the customer doesn't have a safe method of transporting the tank upright and in the open. That one is, of course, widely ignored.
yep, though there is a 100 gallon tank. Usually a squat upright tank about 6 ft in diameter. NOT portable. The largest tank commonly hauled to the filling station is 100 lbs.
This is the only way I've ever seen it done. No scale. The pump is measuring output in gallons but they fill till the overflow valve is spewing. Here in California the odds of getting hyper condesed fuel are slim. If it gets that cold out, we don't leave the house :-)
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