DFP cabling, Pendant moving, SOLVED.... part 3

Holy shit.....
Previous DFP cable extensions didn't work (not well, at any rate), dfp-dvi adapters didn't work (with DVI cables as the extension), dfp gender
changers/hardware almost don't exist..... DVI cables seem to be pinned every way to sunday. And even if they were pinned "correctly", the dfp-dvi *adapter* is hobbled from the gitgo because my dfp cables are 26 pin, and DVI cables (dual link) are 24 pin, so even with the "proper" adapter, you are short 2 pins. And then, there is *at least* one dummy pin on dvi cables, sometimes 10 dummy pins.... So at best, you are short 3 pins, and there is no way of telling what those missing pins are doing/not doing.
I was actually at the Microcenter pyooter store, with my dvm, ringing out various dvi cables for their dummy pins, finally concluding that dvi cables were simply not going to work as a substitute for 26 pin dfp cables.
The 30 ft dfp replacement cable (nonHaas) worked, but yielded a significantly degraded image, and the dvi's yielded, well, NO image!! Some pretty blinking colors but no image.
An effing nightmare, and an expensive one.
So the solution turned out to be:
NJ Haas just happened to have an oem 13 ft dfp cable for the GR510 lying around, and for a mere $120, they gave it to me. Had they not had it, it proly would have been weeks to get it from CA Haas.
We took off one connector on each end (the original and the newly-bought cable), and spliced the two cables together. No mean feat, let me tell you. And not a special cable, either. 13 pairs of 28 ga wire, nothing apparently special, I don't know if the wires were even twisted pairs. The whole bunch shielded.
Splicing dat cable was *a muthafucka*, took two of us HOURS to do the job, with multiple soldering irons, vises all over the place, continuity testing *up the ass*.... very time consuming, very niddly work, very easy to make any number of disastrous errors, pinout-wise.
Hint to the brave: don't even *think* about a splicing job like this without a fine low-watt soldering iron and **separate flux**. Flux-core solder is fine for some stuff, I spose, but separate flux makes all the difference in the world for fine stuff, allowing you to instantly tin the wires, which then makes joining MUCH easier and more reliable, AND shrink-tube friendly..
When all was done, the screen image was absolutely PERFECT. I swear to god, we could have spliced TEN cables end to end, with no image degradation!!
So I don't know what was up with these other goddamm cables, replacements, but had I known the difficulties in all this, I would have gone the Haas oem/splice route from the gitgo. A tremendous learning experience.
This pendant re-location cost me a goddamm fortune, when all was said and done, proly $1,000 *just to move a goddamm pendant 15 feet*!!!!! Jesus H. Christ.....
My advice to anyone else doing this is..... well, I don't know.... all these cables were a fuknBUST, and I don't know why, AND cable-splicing is no joke either, bleeve me, so the allure of just buying cables off the shelf strong indeed, BUT it can prove very costly.
But splicing seems to yield an almost *guar-own-teed* result, IF you splice *working OEM* cables.
If splicing, you MUST check the pinout of EVERY wire splice as you go along, to make sure there are no mistakes -- much easier said than done, as it's not mechanically easy to probe the contacts on some connectors, ESP dfp connectors. I had to use a #75 drill on the probe to "get in there". And two people make the job much easier, both the pinouts and soldering itself.
You then have to "protect" yer completed cable splice, also much easier said than done. We had to cut and modify a 2x4 electrical "handybox" and modify romex connectors to ensure the ground AND strain-relieve the splice itself. What a fuknPita.
But the result was perfect, screen/image-wise, absolutely perfect, ZERO degradation. End of a nearly two-week very costly drama/nightmare. Just today's effort, which included picking up the Haas cable and other materials, was a whole day for two (very motivated) people.
Heh, now I know why Haas balked at relocating the pendant themselves.... LOL
--
EA



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Yep, sometimes ya gotta just cut open a special cable out of desperation to actually see what's inside.
It sounds as though you did a good job of structurally reinforcing the splice area to prevent any flexing. Wire that small is fairly durable as stranded, but where it's soldered, it'll start breaking off those fine strands very quickly if any movement or vibration is present. Anchoring a larger section of the cable near the splice to a solid surface (splint) should prevent any movement. I believe you don't want to know what could happen if any of those wires becomes intermittent. That's one advantage of those horrible molded connector bodies.. they hold the fine wires stationary, although I prefer replaceable/repairable connectors.
FWIW, liquid rosin flux (available in small bottles) makes a lot of soldering tasks much easier, and even a few ounces will last a long time.
Show us some of the fancy tricks this machine will do to a proper chunk of metal when you start making some money with it.
--
WB
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I will slit my wrists if anything goes wrong with that cable!!

Zinc Chloride (plumbing flux) does splendidly!

Well, it will do as fancy as the cadcam you program. In my case, since I use only graph paper, it's not fancy at all, just long wide stuff. But which saves enormous time/trouble over finagling in a smaller vmc.
I'll actually be "publishing" the design of my stuff, as "defensive publishing", patent-wise. See Don Lancaster on the uselessness of patents. PLenty of vids, as well.
--
EA

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Well.. maybe now isn't a good time to bring it up then.. BUT, Z-C flux should never be used on electronic circuit components. It's way too harsh, better for uhm... plumbing. Any residue will continue to eat away at the small wires, and with stranded wire, any liquid such as hot past flux, will wick back into the strands a short ways.
I was gonna say you might've been better off just crimping the wires, but you'd already declared a success. Proper crimping and strain relief eliminates the fragile boundary that's always present with soldering stranded wire.

Good one, man.. also liked the one for wifey about the topless hostesses at the show. But seriously, wrist slitting is a bit Japanese schoolgirl.. may I make a suggestion? Fill the coolant system with superglue, hit Start for a long routine, and leap onto the mill table.
Yeah, I did some patent-sense research in the '90s and have read Don's very well organized tutorial, and I think I recall suggesting it to you some time ago.
--
WB
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If that's true, I indeed wish you hadn't told me.... :(
But really, ZnCl2?? I figgered that would be as mild as they come.... I'm surprised it even acts as a flux!! Sheeit, you can EAT ZnCl2.... iirc, it's what's multi-vitamins..... lol

Dat old 2x4 handy box -- attached the "wrong way" -- shore does mucky up my nice cable.... LOL

Actually, I'd be a pill kind of guy, if it came to that.... But really, if it does come to that, ahm takin hoards with me.... all from Wall Street....

Well-organized, eh??? LOL Not Lancasters strong point!!! But really, if that was you, thank you for that. What an eye opener!!! Really, some of the most original thinking/exposition I've read in a long time. . And after reading alladat, I STILL headed for the patent route anyway, until real reality reared its very ugly head, which became crystal-clear bec of my Lancaster readings. A lawyer that was recommended to me sent me a whole bill of patent particulars, and man, it was like reading a Riot Act.... I said, Holy Shit, Lancaster is more correck than he proly knows!!!!! Getting into that patent shit is like being into a loan shark with a vic that never ever ends. Sorta like fukn Domain Names.... what a trap DAT is!!!!!
Don Lancaster pointed out that patenting your own stuff can also hamstring you with your own effing product!! Not likely, but one of many possible scenarios.
Really, one of the great things I've learned on the web. The other being Edison circuits, when I was converting all my fuse panels to breaker boxes, and found that every fukn one of them was wired incorrectly!!!!!! And I had a bunch.... with cloth-covered #14 wire.... it's a miracle my house is still standing!! On alt.home.repair, from that guy Fretwell, iirc. knowledgeable guy, a life/house-saver, in my case.
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EA


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On Wed, 01 May 2013 14:47:06 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:

You can drink ethanoic acid, AKA acetic acid, AKA vinegar, too, but that'll see off electrical joints, as well.
Voltages make the reaction aggressive.
--
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over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
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Yeah, Don Lancaster, Edison circuits, and now Don't use Zinc Chloride.... <groan>
Not disputing that I've got an eventual repair job ahead due to zinc chloride, but zinc chloride is not, afaict, an *acid* flux.
It may be corrosive, but not bec of acidity. The following reaction proly explains the corrosion: Zn(2+) + Cu(0) ---> Zn(0) + Cu(2+), ie, Cu metal (Cu(0) ) is going "into solution" or iow, dissolving.
So nothing really acidic about this, but still corrosive, over time. The reason corrosion does not occur more quickly is because Zn is "higher" in the electrochemical series, and when Zn(0) forms, it tends to shoot back its electrons to Cu, keeping Cu intact -- for a time. But eventually the statistics of the equilibrium do wear away the Cu, apparently.
If the chemistry were reversed, ie, the wire were Zinc metal, and the flux CuCl2, the corrosion would proly be complete in mebbe a matter of hours or days, bec Zn(0) + Cu(2+) ----> Zn(2+) + Cu(0) would proceed forward until completion, ie, no more Zn metal, again, for the same reason, that Zn is higher in the electrochemical series, driving the reaction forward to completion.
Nuthin like ad hoc realizations..... ad hoc = Too Late, in this case. <sigh>
--
EA



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Oh, fwiw, by virtual chemical definition, ZnCl2 is a *salt*, just like sodium, potassium, calcium chlorides. And all are indeed corrosive, albeit in a variety of ways.. NaCl corrodes concrete!
--
EA


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Yes, it is a salt but dissolved in water, it becomes quite acidic. A 6M solution will have a pH near 1.0.
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That's like 800 gm in a liter of solution!!! Is that the approx. concentration of flux?? The Merck gives a pH of 4 of aqueous solution, proly less than 1 M, but, as you say, still substantially acidiic... go figger. Yet NaCl forms a neutral solution..... go figger.
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It probably is a near saturated solution. ZnCl2 is highly water soluble. It is made by dissolving zinc metal in hydrochloric acid. They might even stay on the acidic side by limiting the zinc added.
You sound like you have a chem background.
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And.. phosphoric acid is commonly used in foods/beverages, but just watch it etch steel (even significantly diluted).. pickling.
I expect that the hydrochloric used in the process of making plumbers flux could be a contributing factor, but I'm no chemist.
It might be worthwhile to re-do the cable soon before any/all recollection is gone.
If the wires were heavier gage, they might last for years, but those fine strands in 28ga wire are fairly delicate depending upon the number of individual strands.
There are numerous methods for fanning out bundles of wires. In addition to making secure connections, stabilizing the splice area is very important with fine wires.
Roger on the piles of stinking corpses.. CSI will clean 'em up.
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WB
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    [ ... ]

    Anti-wicking tweezers can make a big difference there. But yes, I prefer crimping, myself.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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That's not good. When it fails, you will know where to look. Zinc Chloride flux is a bad thing to use on small wires. It will corrode your connections over time.
Since you buzzed the cable out as you built it, did you document all the connections? Maybe you can get some cable and connectors and make up a continuous cable without any splices to have ready for the future.
Good luck, tm
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wrote:

Seconded - the zinc chloride plumber's flux may cause it to fail over time. Probably will, but nothing is an absolute. Worse, if it's on a ground lead it might not outright fail from the signal going open, but it'll get glitchy. Ground loops on video lines causing ghosting and general weirdness.
Don't rush (because that triples the cost) but now is the time to call Haas and either have them make you an extra-long 30-foot cable the next time they have a batch made up, and they might get more call for them once it's known they exist.
Or see if they can make an Extension Cable with male and female connections, or a "Gender Bender" to connect two cables end-to-end without a lot of drama.
--<< Bruce >>--
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"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)"


Dayum -- universal consensus on ZnCl2..... No herculean effort goes un-sabotaged, eh??
Well, all good advice all around. It's working now, when I can breathe, I'll arrange for a more permanent solution. I don't know if Haas can accommodate me, since these cables are almost f'sure subbed out and rare to begin with. What I can also do is eventually find the female PCB/board connectors, and make my own gender changer/coupler. And buy two new cables!!
Or, I can just re-splice.
It looks like my new re-located pendant is going to be the gift that keeps on taking....
--
EA






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Look at the bright side. It was an educational experience. Most pay much more for that.
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yeah, it's not a big deal.
It will be much easier to resplice the cable later once you know what do do. I love forgetting a piece of heat shrink tubing or strain relief netting stuff and having to start all over again when redoing connectors.
Telco guys have no problem splicing hundreds, even thousands of pairs, they have some cool tools, but it's still a manual process to line things up. It's the same for fiber, but that stuff is more fragile.
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On Wed, 1 May 2013 22:20:51 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

much

connectors.

things

Fiber optic cable and the fibers aren't really all that fragile. I know, i have done some splicing. In raw tension they are noticeably stronger than copper of equal size. Against bending they fail, and transverse shock will cleave a fiber in less than a millisecond. That is how the pre-splice cleaver tool works, and it is necessary to get a really clean perpendicular end. After that, the rather automated fusion splicer does the splice proper. Then moving the already on fiber reinforcement into position and heat shrinking it on and putting everything in place in the splice trays and water tight splice enclosure. And i omitted most of the prep.
?-)
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ID> wrote in message

ide

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n a

,
d
s
ALL electrical tech manuals warn against acid fluxes and acid core solders in doing electrical joints. Surprised you didn't know that.
It's going to fail, just a matter of WHEN. Best cut the joint out and redo it properly. You CAN get tinning pastes that have solder and paste flux ground together, sold for tinning irons but not limited to that. RS has a quarter-sized tin of that for $5-6 bucks, works well for the intended purpose and I've used it for doing really fine stranded splices. It's intended for electrical work, too, so has activated rosin flux, the ONLY stuff that should be used for electrical work.
As to the failure mode, they don't call it ACID flux for nothing. Zinc chloride attacks copper, which is why you get that fine and easy tinning from it, it dissolves oxides and a bit of the copper, leaving a nice chemically clean surface for the solder. Unfortunately, it just doesn't disappear. Those chlorides keep eating and those fine wires will disappear as blue-green sludge, sooner or later. It'll wick up the inside of the insulation as well, so don't leave it too long or you'll be chopping out more than you want.
DVI cables have a number of standards, some for analog video, some for just digital video, some for analog and digital video and some for two- channel and bidirectional. If you don't like one, you can always find another. But you DO have to pay attention to the tags on the bag or wrapper. And sometimes they lie, too.
For doing those computer-type cables, I made up a jig many years ago that uses a couple of wooden snap clothespins glued to a wooden base. Works well for a third and fourth hand. A later version I made up allows one pin to slide for joint alignment.
Stan
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