Drill Sharpeners



I learned this from some "old school" tool & die makers......after regrinding...a stiff wire brush is your best friend. 1- it takes the burr off. 2- when done right, it gives a slight hone to the edge (were talking HSS here). A razor sharp edge is not your friend when drilling. I cannot count how many solid carbide drills I went thru learning that lesson. The slight hone tends to help create a chip.....a razor edge tends to grab....sucking the drill into the material ever so slightly. HSS drills are much more forgiving than carbide....much tougher. When you look at a new "quality" carbide drill (Mitsubishi, Titex, Guhrig, SGS....a long list) you can visibility see the hone.....almost what you would consider negative rake. Only a select few regrind shops that I have used actually do this. I do not know of a machine that does a hone to an edge....most if not all are done by hand. A few years back I had the chance to tour Sumitomos facility. All drill hones were done by hand by some Jap chick. Sumitomo makes one hell of a drill BTW
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Nobody ? using Deckel/Alexadria/Kulman single lip cutter grinder (my favorite machine in the whole wide world) with a drill sharpening attachment?
should'nt have sold that beauty on e-bay when the company closed back in 02. Needed the $
Once a place has one of these & know how to use it they'll never get rid of it. I beleive some of the fancier ones had opitics?
Man what the hell happened to all the 1:1 Deckel guys? & Kellers? Was this just a midwest thing? Before CNC's were so readily available, we traced 3D everything of off beautiful accurate wood models. Those duplicators were going out as I came into this now feascle trade.

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wrote:

Nobody ? using Deckel/Alexadria/Kulman single lip cutter grinder (my favorite machine in the whole wide world) with a drill sharpening attachment?
should'nt have sold that beauty on e-bay when the company closed back in 02. Needed the $
Once a place has one of these & know how to use it they'll never get rid of it. I beleive some of the fancier ones had opitics?
Man what the hell happened to all the 1:1 Deckel guys? & Kellers? Was this just a midwest thing? Before CNC's were so readily available, we traced 3D everything of off beautiful accurate wood models. Those duplicators were going out as I came into this now feascle trade.

a dekel post hidden in a drilling subject. shame.
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whadaya mean shame?<g> its a deckel! The original moldmakers (glorified machinist) machine! W/O them & Kellers those guys back in the 50's & 60's & even 70's when I started, would have had a bitch of time making 3D stuff. The deckel I'm refering to is a cutter grinder, made to go along with the 1:1 duplicator for making SL cutters of any shape, taper,ball,bull, lolly pop, + rib cutters, square or hex, + "gun reamers"+ square "do drills" & sharpen bottom's of ends up to 5/8"! not to mention using it as a half ass cylindrical grinder/indexer for small pins & just a plain ol pedestal grinder for hand sharpening. Now thats a versatile machine! FYI there were 2 models of them. A big stand alone & a bench top model. I was just curious about the drill sharpening attachment for it? Some times those add ons are just a pain in the ass?
\|||/ (o o) ______.oOO-(_)-OOo.____________________ ~ Gil ~ the Deckel king?
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wrote:

you misunderstood me, im a deckel fan.
whadaya mean shame?<g> its a deckel! The original moldmakers (glorified machinist) machine! W/O them & Kellers those guys back in the 50's & 60's & even 70's when I started, would have had a bitch of time making 3D stuff. The deckel I'm refering to is a cutter grinder, made to go along with the 1:1 duplicator for making SL cutters of any shape, taper,ball,bull, lolly pop, + rib cutters, square or hex, + "gun reamers"+ square "do drills" & sharpen bottom's of ends up to 5/8"! not to mention using it as a half ass cylindrical grinder/indexer for small pins & just a plain ol pedestal grinder for hand sharpening. Now thats a versatile machine! FYI there were 2 models of them. A big stand alone & a bench top model. I was just curious about the drill sharpening attachment for it? Some times those add ons are just a pain in the ass?
\|||/ (o o) ______.oOO-(_)-OOo.____________________ ~ Gil ~ the Deckel king?
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wrote:

"Nobody ? using Deckel/Alexadria/Kulman single lip cutter grinder (my favorite machine in the whole wide world) with a drill sharpening attachment?"
I've got an SOE with all of that stuff. It's not much you know. I've also got a GK-21 with every attachment thst was built in the thirties.
JC
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John R. Carroll wrote:

I got to use one a few times, that's a sweet machine. I did a small and simple cavity for a prototype mold. That was the first and only cavity I ever cut. Did my patterns at 10:1, and machined features that were all but impossible to see with the naked eye. Of course, any CNC could do that easily. But I love mechanical things, and it was just a joy to use and neat to see things come out so perfectly. Helped a lot btw, that I had a talented mold maker offering advice, I didn't figure out everything on that machine by myself.
In case I ever win the lotto, might yours be for sale?
Jon
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LOL I doubt it. I've got a KF-1 fully outfitted that I'd probably part with. That one even has it's original ratio arm and scroll attachment. You ought to be able to find piles of these things for peanuts in the midwest.
JC
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John R. Carroll wrote:

The machines are not hard to come by, but collecting all the attachments would take a while unless one lucked out and found one fully outfitted.
Jon
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ya they are in back corners of every mold old shop now days collecting dust. The really interesting attachment for the KF-1 was the mirror image attachment. Saved my ass a few times. IE:You could take an exsiting cavity & make an electrode for a new cavity! The GK21 is a smaller 3D pantagraph with ratio's from 1.5 - 10:1 So if your model is off .001" your traced piece is off .0001! at 10:1. The spindle had an rpm of 10k? easily rebuild able with standard ball bearings & races. Great for engraving. Jewelers have a similar type for their engraving, but not spindle, just a point *scratcher* But as this post is about, the drill sharpening attachment for the SO machine?
\|||/ (o o) ______.oOO-(_)-OOo.____________________ ~ Gil ~ the HOLDZEM king
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wrote:

"ya they are in back corners of every mold old shop now days collecting dust. The really interesting attachment for the KF-1 was the mirror image attachment."
I've also got the ratio bar attachment.
"The GK21 is a smaller 3D pantagraph with ratio's from 1.5 - 10:1"
1.4 : 1
"So if your model is off .001" your traced piece is off .0001! at 10:1. The spindle had an rpm of 10k? "
20K in the high range.
"easily rebuild able with standard ball bearings & races."
You can still get OEM parts from Germany.
"Great for engraving. Jewelers have a similar type for their engraving, but not spindle, just a point *scratcher*"
That's the GK-12
"But as this post is about, the drill sharpening attachment for the SO machine?"
I said I had an SOE, which is the larger one, with the attachment and microscope. You can buy a good used SO in California for about four thousand and a beater for twenty five hundred.
JC
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On Jul 5, 11:47am, "John R. Carroll"

Probably a bit cheaper here in the midwest. But how about the drill sharpening attachment? any good? pain in the ass to set up? not worth it?(its only a drill) But the SO grinder is worth its weight to a machine shop, in my opinion. Just not exposed to most others than mold shops.
\|||/ (o o) ______.oOO-(_)-OOo.____________________ ~ Gil ~ the HOLDZEM king
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wrote:

"Probably a bit cheaper here in the midwest. But how about the drill sharpening attachment? any good? pain in the ass to set up? not worth it?(its only a drill) "
I used to use mine to sharpen Gun drills and it's the cat's ass for that. You get the proper relief angle and land every time.
"But the SO grinder is worth its weight to a machine shop, in my opinion. Just not exposed to most others than mold shops."
Best all purpose shop tool around if you know how to use one and need to grind something up on the fly. Spade type drills and "Square" cutters and reamers can be life savers and you aren't likely to find one around on a Saturday.
JC
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wrote:

I believe that I am the O.P. to which you are addressing your opinions, above.
Let me just say that I started on my apprenticeship in 1946 and one of the first things we had to learn was how to grind or sharpen tools. Apparently this is a common trend in the trade as I don't believe I have ever worked with a Machinist who couldn't sharpen his own tools.
The discussion of knowledge and perfection is simply ridiculous when talking about drilling. Drills are not designed as precision tools.
Drill faster? How much faster? Any trained individual can sharpen a drill.
Do you somehow believe in miracles? Buy this Super Deluxe Drill Grinder and somehow your drills will cut faster then the recommended cutting speed for the material? (If you do then I've got this bridge. Buy it and it will get you to the other side of the river in half the time).
It appears to me that you are really not a Machinist and know little about the trade. Of course anyone can be mistaken so how about correcting our misconceptions and posting where and when you served your apprenticeship as a machinist.
(my bet is that you are just a machine operator)
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wrote:

You must be new here.
Most of AMC has bet, long ago, that Jon Banquer does indeed work in machine shops, but as the janitor. And still, has to travel from state to state for work.
If Jon "check-kiter extraordinaire" Banquer can manage to put new wheels on his effing Kennedy versacart, it will be a minor miracle.
--

Mr. PV'd

Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
  Click to see the full signature.
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Proctologically Violated wrote:

Even if he really does what he says he does in the environment he says he does, he works for a BIG corporation. He's nothing more to them than stew meat, a minor cog in the wheel, disposable at their whim.
Corporate Cannibal (Grace Jones)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgMn2OJmx3w
-------------------------------------------------- Pleased to meet you, pleased to have you on my plate your meat is sweet to me your destiny your fate
youre my life support, your life is my sport
Im a man-eating machine X2
you wont hear me laughing, as i terminate your day you cant trace my footsteps, as i walk the other way
i cant get enough prey, pray for me X2 (im a man-eating machine) corporate cannibal, digital criminal corporate cannibal, eat you like an animal
employer of the year, grandmaster of fear my blood flows satanical, mechanical, masonical and chemical habitual ritual
im a man-eating machine.. X2
i deal in the market, every man, woman and child is a target a closet full of faceless nameless pay more for less empitness [ Grace Jones Lyrics are found on www.songlyrics.com ]
ill make you scrounge, in my executive lounge you pay less tax, but ill gain more back
my rules, you fools
we can play the money game greedgame, power game, stay insane lost in the cell, in this hell slave to the rhythm of the corporate prison
im a man-eating machine i cant get enough prey pray for me corporate cannibal digital criminal
ill consume my consumers, with no sense of humour ill give you a uniform, chloroform sanitize, homogenize, vaporize you
im the spark, make the world explode im a man-eating machine, ill make the world explode corporate cannibal ------------------------------------------
Maybe a nice gig while it lasts, but nobody in a big corporation is indispensable....
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On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:18:31 +0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

During my apprenticeship I learned to braze & grind my own cutting tools. To be called a machinist in your world does that mean I can't use modern manufacturing techniques or insert tools?
What of machine tools, I learned on manual and simi-automaic machines during my apprenticeship. Can we use modern machine tools and in your world still be called machinists?
Grinding a drill for a home shop is one thing, in a high production modern machine shop environment is quite another. I have used the Optima Drill Grinder in three shops now and in each one we eliminated spot drilling entirely and in some cases even reaming operations.
Sure we could use general purpose points produced by hand grinding or cheap drill grinders like the Darex but that is quite limiting in a high quality, high production environment. Sure is a money saver, money maker when you have a tool where you can quickly change drill geometry for specific materials and conditions, one that gives results often better than new AND eliminates one or two machining operations in the process.
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
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On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:18:00 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Not much of a surprise since you do like to parrot, copy and paste without giving credit.

http://www.johnsonstooling.com/optima.htm Optima Drill Grinder, same thing as the Mega-Point you linked to above.
I bought one off of eBay a few years back, excellent condition had EVERY option and chuck all for only $1,200. How much did you say you paid for your POS Darex M5 Jon?

Only if you know little or nothing about production, drilling and drill grinding.
How are you going to grind high performance points (like these) http://www.novatechonline.com/products/mega/grinding_examples.htm on your Darex? (Trick question, you can't do ANY of them on a Darex M5.)
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
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wrote:

How bout dat 5-axis Brierley? wow....
Seems to me a fadal w/ a 4/5 axis trunion could be used in place of a Brierly, no? If the program were properly written, I could see almost all drills (of a similar class/style) accommodated with just the changing of a diameter offset/tip angle.
If there were some downtime, set up the machine, load the program, and sharpen a day's worth of drills.
I have never used *any* drill sharpener, but sharpen them half-assed by hand, but see one poss. common problem: the initial loading of the drill relative to the flute direction at the tip.
I do this by hand by determining as perfect a symmetry by eye as possible -- easier to show than to describe.
So I guess if there is a Q to all this, it is How do you load the drill properly to begin with? Is there something that "locates" the flute angles/directions?
--

Mr. PV'd

Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
  Click to see the full signature.
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On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 12:59:17 -0400, "Proctologically Violated"

The drill fits into chuck and is clamped tight, chuck is inserted into the grinders arm, chuck pushed forward (gently) till drill stops against sapphire lens, turn chuck so drill flute is positioned above center in relation to comparator screen parallel lines, drill chuck is then clamped firmly in arm.
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
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