OT: possible replacement for manufacturing jobs

On Sun, 24 May 2009 10:36:51 -0700, Gunner Asch


======More evidence for Gunner's point of view
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/71520770-4a2c-11de-8e7e-00144feabdc0.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124329282377252471.html
http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/22/news/companies/zombie_banks/index.htm?postversion 09052615
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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Mon, 18 May 2009 17:57:00 +0000 (UTC) did write/type or cause to appear in alt.machines.cnc the following:

    You start with "resource extraction" - mining or farming (timber comes under farming, these days).     After that, it is all processing / manufacture. And with Manufacturing, you need sales people, cause if you don't have sales, you don't have jobs. "Only Customers pay wages." - pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
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You guys are thinking too old school.
Two of the richest three people in the world (Bill Gates and Larry Ellison) made their fortunes in the software industry. Not a whole lot of manufacturing in the software industry. The vast majority of the value in the companies they founded is intellectual property.
Same goes for the next big cutting edge economic driver: the biotech industry.
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On Mon, 18 May 2009 19:40:34 -0700 (PDT), "Kurgan. presented by

=========While this is a valid point of view, it is well to remember there are several tacit assumptions.
The most important of these is the continuing availability of adequate, even a surplus, of food, shelter, clothing and the other necessities of life. Note that the existence of these items is not enough, the people must be able to purchase/consume these.
The rapid increase in main-stream America of the fraction and absolute numbers of homeless and the explosive growth in the demand for subsistence assistance such as the low/free cost food at the community pantries and other outlets indicates an increasingly serious problem.
When the supply of any of the necessities of life are inadequate, activities such as software and biotech, other than as they contribute to correcting the shortages, are of little value. E.g. biotech and IT are a hard sell in the Sudan, Haiti, etc., and in any case are far too narrow a base on which to build a viable economy, e.g. just how system analysists/programers and bio technicians can an economy support?
"High value added" is an important condition in that this emphasizes high efficiency/effectiveness activities, rather than action for the sake of action or "make work," and the generation of a surplus.
The unfortunate truth is that in too many cases the traditional "high value added" activities, which tend to be concentrated in manufacturing, cannot simply be restarted as the factories no longer exist, and the "know how" is no longer available. The same conditions exist in domestic [US] mining/extraction and agriculture.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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On May 18, 9:19 pm, F. George McDuffee <gmcduf...@mcduffee- associates.us> wrote:

<snip>
There's more than enough.
Look at the poor people. They're the ones who are the fattest.
People store tons of crap in their garages. People have so much stuff they rent off-site storage spaces for all their extra stuff that doesn't fit into their homes.
Before the Industrial Revolution, 90% of the jobs in the US were in agriculture. Now it's about 1.5%. Same thing is happening to manufacturing. Workers can produce more and more because of automation.
The post-Industrial Revolution (what we're in now) focuses on the *quality* of what is consumed. The intellectual property that I mentioned in the previous post. Look at what your computer can do now compared to the computer you had 20 years ago.
Twenty five years ago we were still tethered to telephone land lines. Thirty Five Years ago there weren't any video games. I couldn't afford a Wilson NFL football 35 years ago because they cost $50. That was in 1973 dollars. Now, in 2009 dollars, I can buy one at WalMart for $11.
There's plenty of stuff to consume. People don't realize it because what they're consuming relative to their peers doesn't seem to be increasing. Overall though, we consume more and more and more.
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Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:

Software, and all of information technology, is a service industry. It serves (directly or indirectly) the three basics. If it didn't, it wouldn't exist.
Biotechnology is an interesting blend of the basics. Inventing or adjusting living things is manufacturing and agriculture combined.
But the basics aren't old school. They're always there, or you don't have an economy.
KG
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wrote:

Actually people who use software are in a service industry maybe, but the production of code and the sale of that code is manufacturing.
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No it isn't.
It's the creation of intellectual property. More and more software gets downloaded these days. That's not a manufactured good. Neither are copyrights or patents to which software is akin. Those are also intellectual property and not manufactured goods.
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You're a smart guy, but you're thinking too inside the box. It's understandable that people do this because the government does the same thing - lumping software in with the services industry.
It's a different animal than the traditional services industry. When someone purchases a piece of software, what they're really doing is purchasing the right to use a piece of intellectual property. Same goes for song downloads off itunes.
The government does that lumping in because they're a bunch of bureaucrats and they didn't think about how to address software and other intellectual property when it first started to become statistically significant.
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Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:

What the heck. They were calling McDonalds manufacturing a while back.
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cavelamb wrote:

In part, that's exactly what it is. Taking raw agricultural materials like beef, potatoes, and lettuce, and making them into deliverable food (more or less) is not fundamenatlly different than taking raw mining materials like iron or bauxite, and turning them into deliverable metal products.
What makes McDonald's a mixed bag is that they're also in the business of marketing and delivering what they manufacture. Every manufacturer does that to some extent; but most machine shops don't have a pet clown, a theme song, or a multi-trillion dollar annual advertising budget. So McD's "front end" activities sorta obscure the fact that they actually do something real back there behind the counters.
KG
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Every

I seen a few in various machine shops.
--
Remove "nospam" to get to me.

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This newsgroup certainly does.
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wrote:

Might want to revise that.. the auto manufactures are not "manufacturing"?
Gunner
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On Sat, 23 May 2009 08:08:32 -0700, Gunner Asch

========And here is the problem.
When evaluated by where they [said they] were earning their money, the Detroit car companies were not car companies at all but finance companies or quasi banks, making money from speculation [fx was popular]/investment and consumer loans, including residential mortgages [e.g. GMAC -- Diatech Funding, ResCap]. The manufacturing part was a side show.
The car dealers have historically made much more money from F&I [finance and insurance] on a new car sale than from the sale itself.
While there are many examples, remember the Corvair, the Vega, the Chevette, the Chevrolet Citation, the Cadillac Cimeron, the use of Chevrolet engines in the Olds and other higher price cars, the use of the automatic transmission designed for low torque/power applications behind big engines, and value analysis, value analysis, value analysis, to the point that safety, durability, economy and consumer value were compromised even as the corporate bottom line improved.
Its the old old story of the tail wagging the dog, and to mix in a few more metaphors, "milking the cash cow to death," and "cutting the golden goose open."
While I have not worked in the OEM automotive sector in quite a while, I doubt that much has changed in that production/manufacturing is still the lowest rung and last in the corporate pecking order, with all the nominally supporting functions such as "data processing," marketing, finance, accounting, etc. getting the lion's share of management attention, and the individuals in these areas getting the promotions and raises. "Engineering" is next to last, with the main thrust on "cost reduction" and "value analysis."
The only thing surprising about the collapse of GM & Chrysler is that it took this long.
FWIW -- a news article says the domestic new car market is the worst it has been in c. 30 years, with sales now projected to be less than 10 million cars annually. http://www.leftlanenews.com/may-car-sales-to-take-another-slide.html
As in many news articles the facts appear to be correct, but the import/context is not stated. First, 30 years ago the transplants/imports had a much smaller share of the US market; Secondly the U.S. population was smaller. currently estimated at 306 million http://www.census.gov / in 1979 the U.S. population was estimated at 225 million or about 74% of current population. http://www.infoplease.com/year/1979.html
Thus on a population adjusted basis, new car sales are much worse than indicated by the raw numbers, as the sales correspond to 7.4 million adjusted for population growth, which puts the sales back in the "Eisenhower Prosperity Years," particularly when domestic production is considered.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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cavelamb wrote:

What else would you call a business that uses automation to turn raw materials into finished product, without human intervention? People load and unload the machines, they don't cook food anymore.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

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Eregon wrote:

Of course they recover it. They even have a name for it... 'Secret Sauce'. :)
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

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rec.crafts.metalworking:

Their "Secret Sauce" is nothing more than Thousand Island salad dressing.
That's been common knowledge for decades.
The question was not about the grease/coolant [they use the leftovers in what they jokingly refer to as "Ice Cream"] but what they do with the swarf.
--
I used to be an anarchist but had to give it up: _far_ too many rules.

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wrote in

Darn, I always thought it was "slimy sauce." As in, "Two all-rotten fatties, slimy sauce," etc.
-- Ed Huntress
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Ed Huntress wrote:

Sounds perfect for the fat and lazy politicians.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

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