For folks to pick and choose education is a pretty good investment.
The issue is clouded by that fact that smart folks without formal education often do quite well.
Bill Gate$ was a college dropout.
Most of the "robber barons" on the 19th and early 20th century didn't even finish what would be called high school today.
But education (in the right field, not just a degree in "liberal arts") will just about guarantee you a comfortable living working in an air conditioned office (if that's what you want.)
Over the past decade, the Canadian economy (i.e. GDP) and new jobs for engineers have grown roughly 20%. In the same period the overall number of new engineers (local grads and foreign trained immigrants) has grown an astonishing 300%! There is a huge glut of engineers, particularly in the Greater Toronto area and perhaps in Vancouver and other major cities too. I don't know how long it will take before the situation improves for engineering job seekers- maybe a few years or maybe a decade or longer. These are very bad times for EE graduates. There had been media reports about engineers driving taxis and delivering pizzas. Pizza engineer?
Take four years earning potential and a hundred thousand dollars. plus all interest, against one of the trades. I'm not so sure college is a wise financial choice, these days. It was thirty years ago, but I'm not so convinced it is today.
Of course if it's what you *want* to do, that's a different thing. Some people really want to be music history majors too. ;-)
Funny thing is, right now I am looking towards electronics, at least at the microcontrollers and such. But the thing is, most EE degree programs seem to emphasize alot towards the RF/electronics/computers route, way more than I'd want to learn about them. Although I'm liking microntrollers right now, I can say with confidence I wouldn't want to do it as my career, only as a hobby. I like BIG things, like power systems and control systems in manufacturing plants.
LOL, being 24 and living at home, you might want to retract that first statement! The reason why I mentioned money not being a huge factor in my decision was because I have 40 years to make it up. And assuming a degreed engineer makes $20k a year more than one without a degree, it would mean a break even point at 12.5 yrs, the rest is all profit. However, the reason I'm looking at getting a degree is more because I don't want to hit a glass ceiling, and of course money makes everybody happy, (all else being equal). Main thing is, if I do decide to pursue a degree (instead of just taking some part time computer & electronics courses), I should be doing it now, not 10 years from now. On the other hand, I don't see taking specific courses (ie Foundation Fieldbus) as being a waste of time either, what's your take?
I would if I could, but I can't so I won't. :o)
Out of curiosty, (and possible advice). If you don't mind me asking, what do you do? And what would you do differently today?
Romy
P.S. How much merit does a bachelor's of science, (in general science) have in the electrical engineering world? I'm thinking not much, but I could be wrong...
Go to a college for three years and graduate with a diploma. This is what I did. Doing so you become a Technologist. I guess that is the equivalent to the US EET program. My program had emphasis on Power Systems and Control systems. We did not do much programming (other than PLC's and HMI). It was good, it was fun, I like what I can do, (which is not the same as what other people think I "cannot" do).
Or, you can go to University for 4 years, get a degree, and go on to become an engineer. Not a whole lot of practical is done here, but the depth of studies is further than the college program. The degree really helps open doors, what else it does, I can't really say because I don't have one.
In Canada, the term "engineering technologist" is generally used to describe someone who has completed a college course leading to a Diploma of Technology. This diploma usually takes two to three years to complete after high school graduation. It is my understanding that the 3-year diploma is offered only in Ontario. The closest U.S. equivalent to the diploma of technology is an Associate Degree.
There are various provincial bodies that certify engineering technologists and issue titles such as CET (Certified Engineering Technologist), AScT (Applied Science Technologist), RET (registered Engineering Technologist).
The Canadian college system also offers 1-year certificates in various engineering fields. These graduates are generally designated as technicians.
Funny thing is... I started out hating that big stuff (two of my brothers are power engineers and my father was an EE Prof, specializing in power/transformers/motors - *big* stuff). When microprocessors came around I jumped on them big-time. I'm rather more interested in power these days, but only as a hobby. ;-)
I'm glad you can borrow money at 0% interest. Can I have some to invest? ;-) Remember, there is risk in any investment and education is no different.
Sure, I'd rather be rich and miserable than poor and miserable. ..all else being equal. ;-)
Certainly it's better doing anything now than waiting to pay more later and have less time to recapture your investment.
No, I don't see education as a waste at all. It just may not be a good investment. If one is going into engineering to make money, one should think again. I wouldn't go into engineering to avoid a "glass ceiling" either. Instead of a "glass ceiling" it'll be a Faraday cage. Practicing engineers don't make it to the top of many companies these days. What engineer wants that anyway!
Well, a 4-year education comes close.
These days I work in microprocessor development (logic verification, specifically). I've done circuit design, analog design, system development, crypto hardware development, microprocessor hardware verification and more. Like I said, I tend to change jobs about every five years. Usually I change because the need changes, though sometimes I decide I've had enough and want to learn/do something new. I relocated (company sponsored move:) eleven years ago because there was interesting work here (project didn't materialize though) and staying was getting risky (huge layoffs).
What would I do differently? Many moons ago I was offered several positions in various companies. I stayed because I wanted a career, not a series of jobs. Stability was worth real money to the family and I always managed to find interesting work inside the company. However, in today's atmosphere I'd not even try to make thirty years for one employer. I even suggest to the "kids", particularly the good ones, that they do five years and split, with the appropriate punch on their resume. Layoffs are part of the game anymore, so it's good to be in as much control as possible. The company doesn't care, so...
A BS in the hard sciences is pretty meaningless, from what I gather. OTOH, a BSEE is *the* degree for Electrical Engineering. A MS is a waste of time and money, IMO, unless you really want a PhD (and then a combined program is a better deal). A PhD may make you "over-qualified" to work in down markets though. A BSEE gets your foot in the door, which is the hard part of finding employment. Many employers will pay for one to continue on for a MS, including time off for classes. I started on my MS, was unimpressed with the quality of instruction available a locally (an extension program) and stopped after four courses of sheer boredom.
"Down" here (I live North of many/most Canuks;) A there are three degrees. The lowest is an associates, which is a two year degree normally offered by a community college. The next level is a BET (Bachelors of Engineering Technology), which is a four year degree that falls short of the BSEE, in the eyes of many employers (I don't happen to agree, much). It seems your degree falls inbetween our Associates degree and BET.
One can do some practical stuff in a BSEE program too. I did lots of extra-classroom projects (and received credit too:). Employers really like the employment-related "extra" stuff.
A BSEE (from a top school brings big points) is the ticket into electrical engineering, particularly on the design side. OTOH, people have different interests.
Waterloo would be an excellent choice if you want to start all over again. It would be difficult however, to establish equivalency of their courses with those in your diploma studies. This is a dilemma most technology grads face when they want to complete an engineering degree. Usually, it means starting over from scratch or at best, you may get a year's worth of credits toward the degree.
With Lakehead, you'll receive full credit for your diploma, mainly due to their program structure. Their program is unique that it is specifically structured to be combined with a technology diploma. For Ontario technology graduates, the program is as you had indicated:
This unorthodox approach allows you to make full use your diploma credits and complete a CEAB accredited engineering degree. You'll be a licensed PEng in less time than if you were to start over. The PEng might come in handy someday. From a return on investment perspective, Lakehead's program makes a lot of economic sense. You can use the time and money you save to pursue a MS later if so inclined.
A little stale, perhaps, but 24 years ago, I completed the 3 year Electrical Technology (Controls option) course at Ryerson and then enrolled in U of T's Engineering faculty. I graduated with a B.A.Sc. Engineering after 3 more years. U of T granted 1 year credit for the 3 years spent at Ryerson.
Not only is the P.Eng. designation handy, but so is a B.A.Sc. The federal government offers an incentive program to companies engaged in R&D. The definition of R&D is quite loose and many activities qualify if properly packaged and include the services of a university graduate. Significant portions of a project's costs, such as salaries, expenses and equipment, can be recouped through tax deductions granted to the employer.
Thanks everybody who responded to my post. Especially the one's who responded numerous times. You all gave me good advice and it was greatly appreciated. For now I think I'm going to take some robotics courses and move on to microcontrollers as well. I'm co-ordinating this really cool project (my very first one!) and that will keep me busy for the next 18-20 weeks, so I really don't want to quit work now to go back to school F/T, (among other reasons).
If you do plan to sit for the FE exam, my advice is to do it as soon as possible, since it covers so broad a scope, and it's best to do it while it's still fresh. You'd also do well to check out a review course, which may just give you enough basics to cover the coursework you didn't get.
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