- Electricial ....Is this legal?

No the ground needs to be #12 copper and insuilated.

On Sun, 27 May 2007 21:19:38 -0400 snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: | On Sun, 27 May 2007 18:01:38 -0400, Terry | wrote: | |>My sister has a new pool. The pump is plug connected. Of course, I |>get the job of installing the GFCI outlet. |>

|>I want to use UL cable, but I want a rigid piece of pipe going up to |>the outlet box. I then intend to mount the box to a piece of unistrut |>driven into the ground. |>

|>Can I just bend a piece of rigid and put the WP box (threaded) on one |>end. Then, put a coupling and a romex connector on the other and bury |>it in the ground? |>

|>I would, of course, bond the box to the bare in the UL. | | No the ground needs to be #12 copper and insuilated.

I didn't notice where the OP had said he's avoiding ground or using a smaller ground. But it's a good thing you caught that to make sure he does this right.

UF is really not one of the required wiring methods. 680.21 (pool motors) only allows "rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the location" and since MC is not listed for burial you are left with conductors in a conduit. The normal installation is rigid non-metalic conduit. (grey PVC) with THHN/THWN conductors. I hope our OP also knows about the bonding requirements. All metal and equipment that is within 5' of the water or part of the cirtculation system need sto be bonded together with minimum 8 ga solid copper wire. That includes pumps, heaters, ladders, rails, diving board supports, any other metal within 5' like screen cages, door or window frames and the steel in the concrete shell. In 2005 that also picked up deck steel within 3' of the water. In 2005 you had to provide that bonding for the deck even if it was pavers set in dirt with a 12x12

On Mon, 28 May 2007 00:59:50 -0400 snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: | On 28 May 2007 04:34:44 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: | |>| No the ground needs to be #12 copper and insuilated. |>

|>I didn't notice where the OP had said he's avoiding ground or using a |>smaller ground. But it's a good thing you caught that to make sure he |>does this right. | | | UF is really not one of the required wiring methods. 680.21 (pool | motors) only allows "rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, | rigid nonmetallic conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the location" | and since MC is not listed for burial you are left with conductors in | a conduit. The normal installation is rigid non-metalic conduit. (grey | PVC) with THHN/THWN conductors.

UF is not required, or not allowed?

Why not UF inside NMC? That should be at least as well protected from damage as THWN inside NMC.

| I hope our OP also knows about the bonding requirements. All metal and | equipment that is within 5' of the water or part of the cirtculation | system need sto be bonded together with minimum 8 ga solid copper | wire. That includes pumps, heaters, ladders, rails, diving board | supports, any other metal within 5' like screen cages, door or window | frames and the steel in the concrete shell. In 2005 that also picked | up deck steel within 3' of the water. In 2005 you had to provide that | bonding for the deck even if it was pavers set in dirt with a 12x12 | 8ga copper wire mesh out 3'..

Stranded is not allowed? Or does use of stranded require a larger size?

The ground is not "insulated"

I see that.

As with all houses, the panel is behind a wall. I will have to fish the wall.

Can I run PVC out to the pool from under the house, and set a box in the crawl space under the house and go from Romex from there?

I am guessing no.

I would think fishing the wall with flex would be the only way to get an insulated 12 down to the panel. And the only way to fish the panel is from the attic.

You can run romex once you get in the house.

Yes, I found that out. Thanks

For the people like me that didn't' know, the insulated ground is required because of corrosion.

On Mon, 28 May 2007 12:29:32 -0400 snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: | On 28 May 2007 13:17:47 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: | |>On Mon, 28 May 2007 00:59:50 -0400 snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: |>| On 28 May 2007 04:34:44 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |>| |>|>| No the ground needs to be #12 copper and insuilated. |>|>

|>|>I didn't notice where the OP had said he's avoiding ground or using a |>|>smaller ground. But it's a good thing you caught that to make sure he |>|>does this right. |>| |>| |>| UF is really not one of the required wiring methods. 680.21 (pool |>| motors) only allows "rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, |>| rigid nonmetallic conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the location" |>| and since MC is not listed for burial you are left with conductors in |>| a conduit. The normal installation is rigid non-metalic conduit. (grey |>| PVC) with THHN/THWN conductors. |>

|>UF is not required, or not allowed? | | The ground is not "insulated"

Interesting. So the risk is that by not be "insulated" (e.g. the UF jacket does not qualify as insulation), the ground could in certain cases end up being energized in there, and leave someone standing in water touching something grounded by that wire with that tingly feeling (or wore). So in effect we really want what amounts to an isolated ground.

|>| I hope our OP also knows about the bonding requirements. All metal and |>| equipment that is within 5' of the water or part of the cirtculation |>| system need sto be bonded together with minimum 8 ga solid copper |>| wire. That includes pumps, heaters, ladders, rails, diving board |>| supports, any other metal within 5' like screen cages, door or window |>| frames and the steel in the concrete shell. In 2005 that also picked |>| up deck steel within 3' of the water. In 2005 you had to provide that |>| bonding for the deck even if it was pavers set in dirt with a 12x12 |>| 8ga copper wire mesh out 3'.. |>

|>Stranded is not allowed? Or does use of stranded require a larger size? | | 680.26 specifically says "solid". It is a corrosion issue.

Larger wire is harder to find in solid.

Question: If I have 7 wires of 8 ga. each, does that make a greater corrosion risk? If not, could stranded by OK (by the spirit, if the wording hasn't considered the case) if each strand is at least 8 ga.?

Phil, it is simpler than that. UF is not one of the wiring methods accepted in 680.22

You would have one wire that met the requirement and 6 more spares. In real life you usually end up with several 8 ga solids in the grid anyway paralleling each other from various paths. By the time you tag all the rebar, the deck steel, all the light niches, the ladder cups, rail cups and diving platforms along with any other metal within 5' from the water and all the equipment you end up with a lot of #8s going everytwhere. On my pool I used a loop of #8 around the deck in the footer for the screen cage that picked up all the radial leads. I also bonded all of the structural uprights in the screen cage to form a faraday cage over the pool for lightning. All of these connections can be any chapter 3 recognized device but the norm is a copper/bronze split bolt.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 22:52:13 -0400 snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: | On 2 Jun 2007 23:01:00 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: | |>| The ground is not "insulated" |>

|>Interesting. So the risk is that by not be "insulated" (e.g. the UF |>jacket does not qualify as insulation), the ground could in certain |>cases end up being energized in there, and leave someone standing in |>water touching something grounded by that wire with that tingly feeling |>(or wore). So in effect we really want what amounts to an isolated |>ground. |>

| | Phil, it is simpler than that. UF is not one of the wiring methods | accepted in 680.22

Yeah, but _why_ is it not one. What flaw does it have. Is it just that the ground wire is only protected by the cable jacket? What if there was a type of wire that has all wires, including ground, fully insulated just like (and perhaps is) THWN, surrounded by the heavy duty jacket? That should be just as safe, electrically, as THWN in NMC. Being subject to damage might still be an issue (my guess is NMC is more durable than UF). But if the UF (with the insulated ground) is in NMC, that's more durable than THWN in NMC.

Ultimately, if I ever get a pool, I'm not going to let anything over 12 volts isolated anywhere near it. Pump motors will either have to run on

I suppose if someone made that cable they would petition NFPA to accept it. That is how the propoasl process works. The reality is that the industry standard is running RNMC from the panel to the primary pool equipment or sub panel location and extending that to the other equipment locations.(like the pool light J boxes) It allows conductor changes if the equipment changes and generally works out well. Why change something that works?

They do make double insulated pool pumps but the 680.26 bonding does a prettuy good job in reducing voltage gradients in the pool area. Generally speaking the GFCI is probably the biggest factor in finding bad equipment. Lights and most other equipment is required to be GFCI.