hot side of switch?

well, the first post did not go so....

I am replacing a porch light, I don't want to turn off all the breakers to the house to find out which one it is, is shutting the switch off safe enough? Or is there a hot side of the switch that could be wired to one side of the light wires, also, it's an old house with no grounding through the home. Thanks much.... Lloyd

Shouldn't be any problem. Just turn the switch off and then replace the light fixture. The new fixture will probably have a ground wire on it so just attach this wire to the box, if any. If not, don't worry about it as long as the fixture is beyond normal reach. If you can touch the fixture from the ground, then you should consider putting a grounding wire to the fixture.

============================== Muchas Gracias! Happy holidays

No. Shutting off the switch does not guarantee that there are no live wires in the junction box.

That is the way I would do it. BEAWARE there may be other conductors in the box that are still hot.

I usually work that way. Keep in mind the possibility of someone else walking by and flipping the switch on an an inappropriate moment. Put a piece of tape over the switch while you work.

Its possible that someone may have (incorrectly) switched the neutral instead of the hot line to the fixture. Its best to check both sides of the fixture for power with a voltmeter.

If you are going to do any more than connect a new fixture to an existing set of pigtails (like undoing any wire nuts in the box), you could still get a shock. Opening up a neutral connection that is carrying load from other fixtures is one way. In this case, go for the beaker.

A long time ago, I went through my house and made a floor plan with every fixture, appliance and outlet shown. I then went through the panel, turning off each beaker and checking outlets and noted the circuit number of each on the plan. Getting the correct breaker is a no-brainer since then.

I say this with due deference to your experience and from one who ALWAYS has 240 volts to ground.

If you do not know how to be sure that the fitting is not alive then you should get a qualified electrician to do it.

There are too too many questions in this and other NGs from rank amateurs who could easily KILL themselves if they just slightly misunderstand what someone advises them without full knowledge of all the facts.

That is not to say you should not ask questions but sometimes the answers are too brief and may easily miss a DEADLY point.

I entirely agree and posters, particularly professionals, should be aware that there is a possibility of being held liable for the advice that they give. I am not aware of it happenening in other than legal groups, but it clearly has happened there.

Working on live, or potentially live, circuitry or equipment is something that should be left to experienced professionals - if someone asks whether they should, the advice has to be that they clearly don't have the experience or expertise to do so. Even then, it should only be done for a very good reason and with suitable tools and precautions.

As an example of what can happen - I came across this:

A lght that had been converted to two way switching by the householder. He had changed the wiring in the original switch to put the local live and neutral on the fixed contacts and re-routed the normal return from the lamp fitting to another, distant, switch in a utility room - where he had picked up live and neutral from the local power ring main fused at 30A (rather than buy the correct cable and extend the live and neutral connections from the lighting circuit).

An electrician, called in by the new owners of the property to change the light fitting, was not aware of this "unusual" extra switch. He removed the lighting breakers (many electrician would simply have taped the local switch off, or not even done that if it was under his direct control), checked for absence of power at the fitting and started working on it. At which point the new owner went into the utility room and pressed the other switch, by mistake for the room light switch. The electrician was killed.

The law in the UK is about to be changed so that unqualified people will not be able to perpetrate such horrors in the future - and get away with any charges on the basis that, "They could not be expected to know that what they were doing was dangerous".

However, the advice has to be to remove all power from the building at the service breaker,or better still, call in a professional - if in any doubt whatsoever.

If you just turn off the light switch and then use a VOLTAGE TESTER like the FLUKE Sears item #03481331000 Mfr. model #1AC-A1 or some other less expensive brand (we call it a "wiggy") it will either LIGHT UP or LIGHTUP/Sound only IF there is voltage present. You must FIRST test it on a LIVE WORKING circuit (an outlet). Since you stated it is an old house, 2 wire system, then one is the hot and one is the neutral. (I am assuming you are in the United States because it come from a comcast feed, the NG posting). So, if there is no voltage present, then change the fixture. It JUST takes A LOT of common sense when doing something so use yours. I assume the house is 120/208 residential and NOT 277/480. Just remember, the neutral can carry a load too, but not so in residential, it damn sure does in commercial/industrial. If you have ANY doubt as to whether you can perform such a task, then call an electrician. Also, you did not state in this post if it was controlled from only ONE light switch or 2 or more. If it is from 2 or more, then you better call someone to do it. As far as LEGALLY being bound to anything posted in a NG, well, that would be kind of hard to say that someone, somewhere is legally responsible for anything because this is an OPEN forum that anyone, anywhere can post to, so no legal binding contract was made between the original poster and those that posted anything to the original post. It could be a 10 yr old typing in ANYTHING and not a legally liable adult over 18 yrs of age, that and there was NO written agreement between the original poster and those that posted in the NG as to whether it was to the original post or not. Man, talk about some paranoid people in this NG. A NG is for FREEDOM of SPEECH, as outlined in the constitution as the FIRST AMENDMENT. No state, county or city law can have ANY jurisdiction over the constitution by saying that someone, somewhere can NOT post in a NG. Like I said before, it's just a whole lot of COMMON SENSE and if you think you don't have enough of it, call someone (who then WOULD be legally liable for it) to come over and do it.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:08:23 GMT, "Lloyd" wrote:

I borrowed a voltage tester, it is a (1) switch light, the wires are dead, I will be fine, thanks all for your help. Lloyd

| The law in the UK is about to be changed so that unqualified | people will not be able to perpetrate such horrors in the | future - and get away with any charges on the basis that, | "They could not be expected to know that what they were | doing was dangerous".

They don't require inspection of the work homeowners do?

| I am replacing a porch light, I don't want to turn off all the breakers to | the house to find out which one it is, is shutting the switch off safe | enough? Or is there a hot side of the switch that could be wired to one side | of the light wires, also, it's an old house with no grounding through the | home. Thanks much....

Maybe it's time to document exactly what is connected to each breaker. Find a time when you can test everything with the switching of all breakers.

There are too many hazards that could exist from past wiring errors to do this safely with just the switch off. It's hard to get the breakers on the wrong wires and have things look like they work, but a switch on the wrong wire is easy and things work (light goes on and off as expected).

Others have mentioned the risk that you have a switch on the neutral. There is also a risk this is part of a shared neutral circuit and you could have some voltage even on the neutral, or even full voltage if a wire is loose (and the light would still work).

Call me paranoid, but if I don't know a house is wired right, I kill power at the main breaker to do the work ... and I still test the voltages between all wires and wear gloves.

Not only is not shutting the breaker off 'safe enough", even shutting off the breaker is not "safe enough". if you have to ask these type of questions, I suggest you get someone who can do this safely to take care of this work for you.

Nope, at the moment, until January, anyone can have a go at the wiring in their own home - and many do.

Another cottage I know of nearby has an Acrow adjustable prop in the middle of the kitchen floor because the owner tried to knock the kitchen and dining room into one, removed a section of wall, and then realised it was load bearing. He does wiring as well - his wife can only switch on the washing machine if she switches the water heater off first....A house I looked at buying in Slough was unstable following the owners trying to "add" a basement room. Unsafe roofs, following the owners removing the support joinery whilst adding an attic room, is common. All of these, bar the electrics, is illegal now and subject to building regulations consent and inspection - so I am not expecting home wiring without consent or inspection to stop - but at least it will be illegal..

| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: | |> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:36:40 +0000 Palindr?me wrote: |> |> | The law in the UK is about to be changed so that unqualified |> | people will not be able to perpetrate such horrors in the |> | future - and get away with any charges on the basis that, |> | "They could not be expected to know that what they were |> | doing was dangerous". |> |> They don't require inspection of the work homeowners do? |> | Nope, at the moment, until January, anyone can have a go at the wiring | in their own home - and many do. | | Another cottage I know of nearby has an Acrow adjustable prop in the | middle of the kitchen floor because the owner tried to knock the kitchen | and dining room into one, removed a section of wall, and then realised | it was load bearing. He does wiring as well - his wife can only switch | on the washing machine if she switches the water heater off first....A | house I looked at buying in Slough was unstable following the owners | trying to "add" a basement room. Unsafe roofs, following the owners | removing the support joinery whilst adding an attic room, is common. All | of these, bar the electrics, is illegal now and subject to building | regulations consent and inspection - so I am not expecting home wiring | without consent or inspection to stop - but at least it will be illegal..

I'd suggest going the planned permit and inspection route (as if any of us colonists would have any influence). Work in all these categories must be planned in writing, with drawings, and filed with a local office to handle such things. A lower fee might be charged if the designs and drawings are signed by a licensed professional engineer in the field, even if the homeowner would be doing the work. Inspectors would check the work at each level (rough-in and completion for basic stuff) to verify it is done as planned. Homes being sold could require an inspection on all the areas as part of the transaction, which can reveal illegal work and fines taken out of the transaction payments. And such work would only be allowed by the owner who also occupies the home, with help from friends and family only on a non-paid basis. All other work, including any rental property or commercial property should be done strictly by a licensed electrician, or someone under their immediate supervision who at least has the training (and is building the experience to get licensed).

That's how we have it over here. I think it is a fair balance. It's not perfect because things can still go wrong. But it at least encourages those who might do the work anyway to do it legal and right rather than illegal, wrong, and perhaps even tragically. Laws that are too stiff can end up cutting off the desired safety influence.

| I borrowed a voltage tester, it is a (1) switch light, the wires are dead, I | will be fine, thanks all for your help.

Followup back here when you are done.

Depends on how old and the code at the time. Now, at least where I am, the hot wire and neutral go to the lamp box. The hot is run down to the switch and and back up (using the white conductor which should be marked) to the lamp. In that case there will be a hot wire in the box- even with the switch off. However, this may not be the case but there is still the possibility that there may be a hot wire in the box. Since you needed to ask- I suggest that you play it safe and open the breaker first. It is a nuisance but not as much as a funeral.

BBBZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTT aaaaagh!!!!!!!!! Darn it, I gotta go