Internation standard

First the question: No

then the statement: buzzz, incorrect. Many devices with DC power supplies are now autoranging and don't care much about the voltage or frequency. These usually work from around 100V (Japan) up to 250V and at 50 or 60 hz.

Charles Perry P.E.

| Will US will change electrical supply to 220V and 50Hz internation standard? | All US electrical equipments won't work in other countries.

A change to 50 Hz would require changing out nearly all the transformers in the power grid all the down to the pole units outside homes. Won't happen.

And why should we lower our voltage down to 220 volts? Even Europe has now standardized on 230. We have 240 volts with the flexibility of using just half of it. We have the transformer secondary winding center tapped to cut the ground fault exposure voltage in half.

The statement "All US electrical equipments won't work in other countries" is simply false. Some won't work, but a lot of other things will work just fine. Many things are made for a variety of voltages and/or frequencies as the particular market needs.

If you want to change the power frequency I suggest you visit Japan and try things there. Half of Japan has 50 Hz and the other half has 60 Hz. So it should be easier to get them to change one or the other, than to get the US to adopt 50 Hz.

Besides, I'd rather switch back to DC :-)

There are so many good products in US such as washing machine, disc washer, refrigerator. None of them just unable to export to other counties. The policy of US to use different standard will put a hard time for US to lead the world. Many countries are getting to use electric train for mass transis system. I don't think anyone will buy from US.

Question #1: Why? Why not change the rest of the world to 117 V AC, 60 Hz? I don't reside in the US, so I'm not biased toward their choice of voltage and frequency, but their choice was as good as any other - there were some pros to using 60 Hz (lower iron weight) and cons to using 110 V (more copper).

Question #2: Why stop at the electrical grid? Is the phone system the same all over the world? Start with the physical interface: in the US/Canada it is RJ-11 (6-pin modular), while in Europe there are/were at least 11 different types of plugs! Take another crack at the phone system: ringing tones - try to dial the UK or Australia and you get a different cadence.

Question #3: Back to the electrical grid - are all the electrical plugs around the world, with the exception of the US/Canada, the same? Hardly. To take it to the extreme: in the Philippines and some parts of Japan, they use the US style (NEMA 5-15, rated 110 V, 15A) to feed 220 V circuits!

Question #4: Another example - driving on the right side of the road vs. the left side of the road - which is better?

Question #5: TV broadcast standards - PAL, SECAM, NTSC - which is better?

You see, we can go forever with example of REGIONAL settings, and never come to a conclusion which is better or worst. The only forces to settles these things are the market when a new technology emerges (what the consumers wish and want, and the VHS vs. Beta is a fantastic example) or some kind of voluntary standardization (like what the IEC or ITU are striving to achieve). After that will come the question of the economic impact. With regards to the 110/60 vs. 220/50, chances are exactly ZERO that any economic block will change either way.

Question #1: Why? Why not change the rest of the world to 117 V AC, 60 Hz? I don't reside in the US, so I'm not biased toward their choice of voltage and frequency, but their choice was as good as any other - there were some pros to using 60 Hz (lower iron weight) and cons to using 110 V (more copper).

Question #2: Why stop at the electrical grid? Is the phone system the same all over the world? Start with the physical interface: in the US/Canada it is RJ-11 (6-pin modular), while in Europe there are/were at least 11 different types of plugs! Take another crack at the phone system: ringing tones - try to dial the UK or Australia and you get a different cadence.

Question #3: Back to the electrical grid - are all the electrical plugs around the world, with the exception of the US/Canada, the same? Hardly. To take it to the extreme: in the Philippines and some parts of Japan, they use the US style (NEMA 5-15, rated 110 V, 15A) to feed 220 V circuits!

Question #4: Another example - driving on the right side of the road vs. the left side of the road - which is better?

Question #5: TV broadcast standards - PAL, SECAM, NTSC - which is better?

You see, we can go forever with example of REGIONAL settings, and never come to a conclusion which is better or worst. The only forces to settles these things are the market when a new technology emerges (what the consumers wish and want, and the VHS vs. Beta is a fantastic example) or some kind of voluntary standardization (like what the IEC or ITU are striving to achieve). After that will come the question of the economic impact. With regards to the 110/60 vs. 220/50, chances are exactly ZERO that any economic block will change either way.

| There are so many good products in US such as washing machine, disc washer, | refrigerator. None of them just unable to export to other counties. The | policy of US to use different standard will put a hard time for US to lead | the world. Many countries are getting to use electric train for mass transis | system. I don't think anyone will buy from US.

Do you think the US will buy from anyone else?

I think it is YOU who has the problem. And it is a problem of not understanding how world trade involving standards that differ actually works.

US products made for export either are capable of handling the variety of voltages and frequencies available throughout the world, or are manufactured for the specific voltage and frequency the product will need at its destination. This is not any different than manufacturers outside of the US do to make products to sell in the US. For example Japanese manufacturers of electronic products make them work correctly on the voltage used in the country the product is being shipped to. Manufacturers in every country know how to do this, including those in the US.

Perhaps you are unhappy because you found a product in the US which is not being exported? Or perhaps you visited the US and bought a product model intended for the domestic market, and it does not work when you bring it back to your country.

What do electric trains have to do with this. Did you know that many electric train systems operate on frequencies even lower than 50 Hz? I've seen them on 25 Hz and 16-2/3 Hz. They also operate on other voltage systems like 1000 volts.

Of course it would be nice if every country used exactly the same power level on exactly the same frequency. But the benefits of that would not overcome the huge costs involved in the conversion. Instead, you need to learn be adaptable. Deal with the fact that you might have to connect to 50 or 60 Hz, and 100 to 240 volts (or even as high as 600 in some industrial locations).

| Question #1: Why? Why not change the rest of the world to 117 V AC, 60 Hz? I | don't reside in the US, so I'm not biased toward their choice of voltage and | frequency, but their choice was as good as any other - there were some pros | to using 60 Hz (lower iron weight) and cons to using 110 V (more copper).

I'd rather adopt the 155 Hz 1680X/1188 volt two phase system they use on the Klingon home world :-) It's well optimized for painsticks.

If there is an overseas buyer who is interested in these US products, I'm sure the US manufacturers are willing to modify their products for export. A washer, for example, would need motors/solenoids rated for 230V

50Hz, and the correct power cord. An electric train would be built to the customer's specifications (including frequency, many railroads use oddball frequencies like 16 2/3 Hz) anyway.

Countries like Japan, China etc. have no problems with selling stuff to the US with the correct 120V/60Hz ratings.

I just wish 240V outlets (NEMA 6-15R or 6-20R) were common enough in US houses so that devices that used them had a market, so small household devices weren't limited to about 1500 watts.

Is that something you made up or is it from some Star Trek "technology" book/web site? How about the "1680X/1188" terminology? (makes perfect sense, why didn't I think of that to describe a two phase system?)

4 wire or 5? :-)

Jesting aside, Con Ed lists 1950V two phase in the service conditions. PECO shows 2400V 2ø *3-wire* in theirs.

I really think a 21st-century improvement to Tesla's system would be 4-wire tetrahedral phase.

?s falke

| I just wish 240V outlets (NEMA 6-15R or 6-20R) were common enough in US | houses so that devices that used them had a market, so small household | devices weren't limited to about 1500 watts.

I feel the same way. But first we must get NEC to remove 210.6(A)(2) or at least lower the 1440 VA requirement. That probably inhibits a lot of things being made for 240 volts with 6-15P, and inhibits a lot of 6-20Rs from being installed. I plan to install them around in my house under

210.6(C)(6).

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:27:14 GMT s falke wrote: | | "Michael Moroney" wrote ... |> >I'd rather adopt the 155 Hz 1680X/1188 volt two phase system they use on | the |> >Klingon home world :-) It's well optimized for painsticks. |>

|> Is that something you made up or is it from some Star Trek "technology" |> book/web site? How about the "1680X/1188" terminology? (makes perfect |> sense, why didn't I think of that to describe a two phase system?) |> 4 wire or 5? :-) | | Jesting aside, Con Ed lists 1950V two phase in the service conditions. PECO | shows 2400V 2? *3-wire* in theirs. | | I really think a 21st-century improvement to Tesla's system would be 4-wire | tetrahedral phase.

Personally, I'd go for the phases on the right side of this picture:

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:57:59 +0000 (UTC) Michael Moroney wrote: | snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net writes: | |>I'd rather adopt the 155 Hz 1680X/1188 volt two phase system they use on the |>Klingon home world :-) It's well optimized for painsticks. | | Is that something you made up or is it from some Star Trek "technology" | book/web site? How about the "1680X/1188" terminology? (makes perfect | sense, why didn't I think of that to describe a two phase system?) | 4 wire or 5? :-)

I made it up :-)

It could be done with 3 wires corner grounded, or just not grounded, too. Or 4 or 5. The X would suggest 4 or 5.

...and it's trivial to engineer these products for whatever market they're going into. You have a complaint with no merit.

WTF is that? 12 phase? Why? And _where_ is that?

What's 210.6(C)(6) have to say? I can't find that portion online.

Cord-and-plug connected, or permanently connected, utilization equipment.

Thats under 210.6(C) which refers to usage for circuits with more than 120 volts line to line and not more than 277 volts line to ground. The 240 volt circuits would fall into this category.

Basically that is saying to me (because it is also used that way in 210.6(B)) that it can be there for anything that needs to be plugged in to it. So all I need to have is some piece of utilization equipment which could have valid use everywhere I put a 6-20R, and also meets 210.6(A)(2) by needing more than

1440 VA (12 amps at 120, 6 amps at 240).

I personally prefer to use higher voltages to decrease current where I can. I'd even consider using 480 volts, but virtually nothing I would ever need is made to use it, and getting it means an expensive utility drop or a big transformer. So 240 will be about it.

And if it weren't for the fact that I dislike fluorescent lights, I might cheat a little and get some 277 volt lights. There are incandescent bulbs made for 277, but it's jut not worth the trouble. I tend to like the small halogens, and those are 12 to 120 volt. Still, if I could find transformers for 240 to 12 volt to run low voltage halogen tracks from, I might do that. I'm not worried as much about the higher currents on the short tracks.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:09:50 +0000 (UTC) Michael Moroney wrote: | snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net writes: | |>Personally, I'd go for the phases on the right side of this picture: | |>

| | WTF is that? 12 phase? Why? And _where_ is that?

Yes, 6 phase on the left, 12 phase on the right. I don't really know where it is. Supposedly by having more phases like that, wire spacing is easier to do. At a 30 degree phase angle, the potential between conductors is a bit more than half the line to ground voltage. So if the voltage from each line to ground is 69000, then from line to cloest line is just 35717. If you go with 24 phases, it drops to 18012.6, so you can interleave 12 more wires in between. Of course at some point the wires are too close to deal with the wind moving them around and they can contact. But you are getting more ampacity with more wires.

The investments in these continental-wide power grids are enormous and won't be changing their standards anytime soon. Unlike the standards developed for TV systems (NTSC, PAL, SECAM), there is little to no technical or economic advantage (such as global HDTV) in switching over to a worldwide standard for power distribution.

In the US, as AC power developed from about the 1890's onward, there were all sorts of oddball frequencies in use, some as high as 133 Hz. As the larger grids were formed, the default frequency of standardization became 60 Hz and the oddball equipment was scrapped.

The dominant electrical industrialists in Europe were the Germans and the Berlin electrical system became the European showcase and model for modern power transmission. The frequency selected was 50 Hz.

To the best of my knowledge, there was no worldwide conference on selecting a global electrical standard as there had been for setting the world's time zones (The French insisted that the prime meridian 0 degrees longitude must run through Paris, but the British held out for Greenwich, and won!) . Perhaps, at the time, the big industrial concerns like Siemens were interested in protecting their markets, but I think the choice was made without even imagining a global market for electrical products. In Europe, even though the voltage and frequency were standardized throughout the continent, every single country had their own unique plug and socket arrangement that persists to this day.

I still have trouble understanding why Japan is at 100 volts and half the country is at 50 Hz, the other half at 60 Hz. Does anyone know the particulars?

Beachcomber