Switching GFCI devices

I agree.

The NEC requires "switches shall be used within their ratings".

IMHO a 15A switch on 20A circuit with 20A or multiple 15A receptacles would be a violation.

-- bud--

This is one of the many NEC rules that make no sense to me. The same thing with multiple disconnects on a service, the original installer may have calculated the load, but who knows about any subsequent installations and installers

The way I read the thread I was agreeing with you. A 20A circuit with a

Multiple service disconnects could certainly be a problem - they are a lot safer if non-electricians leave them alone. IMHO most of the potential problems are "split-bus" panels in a house. My reading of the code is they are still allowed but I don't know if anyone even makes them anymore.

I understand that, it is in switching an outlet that I have the concern. I don't believe there is any rule to disallow a 15 amp switch on , say a single duplex outlet in a bedroom, that's fed from a 20 amp circuit. While it's unlikely that the switch would be overloaded, why not just require the switch ampacity to match the circuit, instead of what's being switched

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I run into the damn things all the time. You go to a house to install an outlet for a microwave, check the panel, it's a split buss with a total of 250 amps worth of mains on #2 AL. Then you have to do a load calculation of the whole house and make sure your liability is paid up, before you add the one stupid outlet

Switches need only be adequate for the load that they control. It is very common in US practice to use ten ampere switches on fifteen ampere circuits and there is nothing wrong with that as long as the load to be controlled does not exceed the rating of the switch. Switches controlling receptacle outlets should never be less than the rating of the circuit because the cord and plug connected load could well be the entire ampacity of the circuit.

-- Tom Horne

(A) Alternating Current General-Use Snap Switch. A form of general-use snap switch suitable only for use on ac circuits for controlling the following: (1) Resistive and inductive loads, including electric-discharge lamps, not exceeding the ampere rating of the switch at the voltage involved (2) Tungsten-filament lamp loads not exceeding the ampere rating of the switch at 120 volts (3) Motor loads not exceeding 80 percent of the ampere rating of the switch at its rated voltage (B) Alternating-Current or Direct-Current General-Use Snap Switch. A form of general-use snap switch suitable for use on either ac or dc circuits for controlling the following: (1) Resistive loads not exceeding the ampere rating of the switch at the voltage applied. (2) Inductive loads not exceeding 50 percent of the ampere rating of the switch at the applied voltage. Switches rated in horsepower are suitable for controlling motor loads within their rating at the voltage applied. (3) Tungsten-filament lamp loads not exceeding the ampere rating of the switch at the applied voltage if T-rated.

Bud They are effectively forbidden by the requirement that "Each lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard shall be individually protected on the supply side by not more than two main circuit breakers or two sets of fuses having a combined rating not greater than that of the panelboard."

-- Tom Horne

408.16 Overcurrent Protection. (A) Lighting and Appliance Branch-Circuit Panelboard Individually Protected. Each lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard shall be individually protected on the supply side by not more than two main circuit breakers or two sets of fuses having a combined rating not greater than that of the panelboard. Exception No. 1: Individual protection for a lighting and appliance panelboard shall not be required if the panelboard feeder has overcurrent protection not greater than the rating of the panelboard.

The notion of lighting and appliance panelboard has been removed from the 2008 NEC.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne is right that "lighting and appliance panelboards" disappeared in the 2008 NEC. You are quoting a NEC version before 2005 (but 2005 probably said the same thing, relocated).

The 2008 NEC also has the same requirements, I believe, as what you quoted, with the 42 pole limit moved into the main article text, which is 408.36 exception 2. My reading is that you can have a split bus panel, but that there can only be 2 main circuit breakers (instead of the previous 6). (One breaker feeds the split bus in the rest of the panel and the 2nd breaker can feed your flying saucer port on the roof.) The sum of the main breaker ratings has to be not greater than the panelboard rating, but there is nothing in this article that I see that prevents the 2 devices from having a rating larger than the service wires using the 6 disconnect rule.

IMHO this is one of the articles where it would help to be a lawyer. (Or maybe not.) You might have used a different lawyer?

I have one of those damn things in my house. I've been wanting to replace it, but I need to research what all else needs to be done in order to bring it up to code. I know I have to install a second ground rod, not sure where my water pipe is grounded, when I did a friend's house I had to add a new ground clamp within a certain distance of the water supply entrance. Need to map out all the circuits and install GFCI's and AFCIs where required too.

I suspect there's a lot of old ratty hardware like this left in service because it's not legal to upgrade just that part.

James What did you mean when you wrote "it's not legal to upgrade just that part."

-- Tom Horne

Just the service panel. When I replaced his, I had to install new ground rods, and run a new ground from the panel to the water supply pipe, it was not sufficient to remove the old panel and install the new one, connected to the existing grounding infrastructure.

That said, I was upgrading the entire service entrance from 100A feeding a 1950s vintage fuse panel to a modern 200A breaker panel which required as well a new meter base and mast. In my own case I have a much newer late 70s breaker panel fed by a 200A underground service so the existing meter base ought to be adequate.

On Sep 2, 12:12=A0am, James Sweet wrote:

Thank you for the clarification.

I had an inspector; in a town that I won't name; try to tell me I had to upgrade the entire wiring plant in a relatives home in the process of doing a heavy up. The home had been wired with the original Non Metallic cable that most of us call rag wire. There were no Equipment Grounding Conductors in any of it. The inspector was not being arrogant or nasty about it but he seemed to think that was within his authority. It being a small town he was the only electrical inspector. I made an appointment to sit down with the towns solicitor. I laid out the problem I had with the limits on the inspectors authority and he agreed to look into it. A month later an informal opinion from the state's office of industrial safety made it clear that the inspector was out of his depth on what he could and could not order corrected. The Town's solicitor raised a stink with the board until they authorized the funds to send all of the town's inspectors to certification training. The electrical inspector actually went out of his way to thank me. He had been asking for certification training for five years he told me. That guy new his electricity inside out and backwards but the town expected him to know how to be an inspector without any formal training. In the intervening twenty plus years every circuit except the first floor lighting has been rewired with modern cable. What made it possible for my sisters family to do that was that they could do it gradually. I've met a lot of really good electricians who are working as inspectors. Problem with some of them is that as inspectors they were really good electricians if you know what I mean.

I strongly believe that every state should have a mandatory certification process for any publicly employed inspector. They also need progressive appeals process so that inspector mistakes have a remedy that is not the courts. In one county I've dealt with you have to crimp sleeve the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs) because their chief electrical inspector believes he can apply the requirement for non reversible splices and taps in Grounding Electrode Conductors to EGCs. Everyone just does it because it is not worth fighting but it really is a total waste of time and material. Many of the crimp sleeves are being applied with the wrong tool and make a lot poorer connection then a well applied Green wire nut would. Cest le vie.

-- Tom Horne

Wow, what a mess.

The fuse panel I replaced was also a mess. I found a 30A fuse screwed into a circuit wired with #14. The fuse was so hot I couldn't hold my finger on it, and the insulation was starting to sag on the wire near the fuse block. The circuit ran the entire basement and had an extra refrigerator on it. It was a big job to replace everything and I think I ended up adding seven additional branch circuits to the house but it's a much nicer and safer setup than before. I left the old un-grounded "rag wire" as you call them circuits in place, it was not remotely practical to completely replace them, however I unloaded them to the extent I could by adding additional circuits to new receptacles in places that needed them.

My own panel is not nearly so bad, it's just old, physically small, has that stupid split main setup, and it's full. My garage has only one receptacle in it and really needs more, and I'd like a 240V circuit out there too so replacing the panel seems the logical place to start. I don't know where my water main is currently grounded, that could potentially be the biggest nightmare since it does not come in near the panel.

? "James Sweet" ?????? ??? ?????? news:h7ncq4$bi$ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org...

Very good. I usually divide a room in two 10 A (230 V) lightning circuits, plus at least one 16 A receptacle, and a couple 10 A receptacles (remember, it's EU so all 230 V). Here, the breaker panel comes void, and you install as many breakers as you like, I usually install the pilux dion, a greek brand of panels, steel painted white. It goes without saying, that the 16 A receptacle is pigtailed, and I *try* to pigtail as much as possible. In new residences all conduits pass through the floor, in "duroflex" medium endurance conduits