Utility Billing KWH/ Measures in KVA but bills in kWh

How does the utility determine the Kilowatts for the kwh energy charge, if the standard meter measures KVA. Would 100 KVA for one hour record 100 kWh?
Does a meter have a built in pf correction factor?
Thanks/Clyde
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clydebeer wrote:

A *domestic* meter measures actual power consumption and displays it in kWhr.
-- Sue
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This is an industrial meter, measuring demand (KVA) and KWH. Medium sized industrial plant.
Thks/Clyde
Palindrome wrote:

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TOP POSTING IDIOT!
Learn about Usenet BEFORE you invade it!
OK, chump... here goes...
ALL business and industrial service MUST pay for ALL non-PF corrected loads.
The meter is not corrected, you equipment must be. That means that any and all inductive loads that you use WILL cost you a bit more.
How can you possibly know the difference between WATTS and VARS, and not know what that difference really amounts to or whom it would be applicable to?
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message wrote:

You are so far off it is funny.
The only folks that get billed for having a bad pf are large industries with very low pf.
The standard kwh meter used in all residential and commercial customers is able to measure the real power directly. Customer loads do *not* have to be power-factor corrected. If that were true, every freezer case in a grocery store would have to have pf correction on the compressor and every office-building would have pf correction on the A/C (not to mention the flourescent lighting).
daestrom
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Most do! All but the cheapest fluorescent ballasts are HPF, they have an internal capacitor to correct the power factor. I've never seen an A/C compressor that didn't have it as well. True, it won't affect the bill for home users, but it's still always good to aim for as close to unity power factor as possible, it allows circuits to be fully utilized and reduces losses in the wiring.
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James Sweet wrote:

The cap in A/C compressors isn't for pf, it's a capacitive start motor. Same in refridgerators, washing machines, dryers, and many furnace motors. Commercial three-phase compressors used in refridgeration and A/C do *not* have any capacitors for pf-correction. The 3-phase motors are started directly across the line. (well, new hi-efficiency units sometimes use variable speed control, but that's another story).
I don't disagree that it's a 'good idea', but the previous poster "ItsASecretDummy" made some outlandish statements about having to pay for non-pf corrected loads. The obvious proof that he's way-off base on this is that most industrial motors are not pf-corrected and you don't have to 'register' or have them inspected by the utility before installation.
daestrom
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Well I measured the power factor of my 3 ton heat pump and found it to be .85 to .91 depending on compressor load, so the capacitor may not be for PFC, but I'd still consider it to be HPF.
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James Sweet wrote:

This is a typical value for a small motor that is properly sized for its load. Really *large* motors can be as high as 0.95. But you don't find many such motors (>2000 hp) except in industry :-).
daestrom
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On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:13:17 -0400, "daestrom"

Even a little shit machine shop with the use of nothing but "smaller" motors has pf considerations to look at.
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@trashmail.net says...

That's because your motor is sized to the compressor properly. If you pulled that motor off the load (compressor) it would have a lousy PF. It is not "PF corrected" in any way.
--
Keith

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If the meter claims to read kWh, then you can take it to the bank that it does in fact read kWh. Most revenue meters are able to measure the real power being used directly without external pf correction. Tariffs for industry often require additional metering if there is unusual load connected. Very low pf can be an issue because of the impact on system voltage. The possibility of high, short-term demand often incurs an additional tariff where you have to pay based on the highest 'peak' during a billing cycle. It sounds like this is what you have.
daestrom
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On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 11:41:22 -0400, "daestrom"

The meters do not get corrected, idiot. The LOADS do!

No shit, dumbfuck. That is what I said.

Why don't you just make shit up as you go, DaeTurd?
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ItsASecretDummy wrote:

No, you said:
<quote> TOP POSTING IDIOT!
Learn about Usenet BEFORE you invade it!
OK, chump... here goes...
ALL business and industrial service MUST pay for ALL non-PF corrected loads.
The meter is not corrected, you equipment must be. That means that any and all inductive loads that you use WILL cost you a bit more.
</quote>
You claim that meters are not able to sense the pf so the customer is required to correct loads. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It would seem you can't write a cogent thought without resorting to profanity. Why don't you go read a couple of tariffs and learn something besides new four-letter words.
Here is a nice explaination of demand charges. Notice that it discusses the peak power levels (demand) and the energy charges. It doesn't discuss pf-correction or charges for pf. https://www.nationalgridus.com/niagaramohawk/non_html/eff_elec-demand.pdf
Here is the tariff that National Grid of NY works under. Have a nice read. Be sure to search for 'power factor' and find all the places where it says customers have to correct their equipment (you won't find it). https://www.nationalgridus.com/niagaramohawk/non_html/rates_psc207.pdf
If you knew anything about revenue metering you'd know that kw-hour meters automatically respond to only the true power used. A 1.0 kW load at unity power factor makes the dial spin just as fast as a 1.25 kVA load at 0.8 pf or a 2.0 kVA load at 0.5 pf.
Sorry you can't accept reality, but that's not my problem.
daestrom
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On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:19:01 -0400, "daestrom"

If you knew anything about it, you would know that power companies REQUIRE their industrial customers to correct power factors on loads that present high pf differentials.

And if you knew a goddamned thing about it, you would know that that is exactly why they take steps to get paid for what gets used, not what is read on the meter.
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ItsASecretDummy wrote:

And that is why large industrial customer revenue metering includes RkVA meters as well. So the utility can be paid for the equipment they maintain that is needed to support the reactive load the customer is drawingl. But if the customer was *required* to correct their own pf, there wouldn't be any RkVA load now, would there 'Dummy'?? Must be the utility installs those RkVA meters just for fun.
The NY tariff I posted a link to earlier (which apparently you haven't bothered to read) also points out that the RkVA demand charge is determined when the kW demand of the customer is more than 500 kW. But I guess all that 'reactive demand' charges and stuff is just put there for fun since you claim all customers are *required* to correct their pf.
Read the tariffs and stop being such a stubborn, vulgar jerk.
daestrom
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On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:18:07 -0400, "daestrom"

Idiot. Not all loads can be corrected. That's where you forgot reality.
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----------------------------
message

----------------------- Industrial demand metering measures peak KVA demand -not power factor. Energy metering inherently measure the kWh used without the need for a power factor "correction". This is no different now, except for the metering equipment, than it was 70 years ago.
Customer loads do not "have" to be pf corrected. If low power factor at the loads add to the peak demand KVA (and this may not be the case) then it would be economic for the customer to add some correction such as capacitors or even synchronous motors. If the low pf is at a light load time, it may not be worth the effort. It is not a great task to decide what is the optimal correction (which will not be to unity pf) for a given situation.
Please, when you have the knowledge that Daestrom has, then you can make sensible comments without the childish invective. Otherwise go and play with Roy.
By the way, top posting is far less offensive than your abusive approach.
--

Don Kelly snipped-for-privacy@shawcross.ca
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Why do you think power companies hang capacitor banks on their delivery systems?

Don't be an idiot. You joined that bash session long before I did. Hell, you piloted the whole damned hayride for a while as I see it.

Bullshit.
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On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:45:29 -0700 ItsASecretDummy
| Why do you think power companies hang capacitor banks on their delivery | systems?
To compensate for the inductance in long distribution lines?
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| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
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