I don't usually do safe or vault work as a service, but have done it as a hobby. Such things as simple repair and combo changes. I want to add combo changing to my services list. What do you out there charge for a simple combo change. And by simple I mean the safe works fine and the user has the current code to allow an easy change. I usually have to go change office locks when a company's staff changes and could easily change their safe combos while I am there.
This will kind of depend on your market. I do strongly recommend that before you start in with safe work you take some classes. While it is easy to change the combination on a key change safe, it is also kind of easy to pull an oops and end up with a lockout. Also if you do everything right, and tomorrow morning they can't open the safe you can expect your phone to ring. This can happen if you do everything right, but unless you have inspected the safe and the lock it is kind of hard to tell.
It is worth the money for the classes and you can save your self and your customer a lot of grief.
Hi- A lot takes place when you ' change the combination ' properly. You first have to discern whether it is a 3 or 4 wheel key-change, hole-change, mesh-wheel, or other type of lock.
That being done, when the combination has been mechanically changed by you, do the wheels line up on the combination numbers you set, or are they high, or low, or "iffy"? Does the lever drop each time the combination is dialed or does it 'go by' some times? Is the dial 'real loose' and tend to easily move past the number when you dial? Since you are the one changing the combination, this is the only chance you'll get to diagnose any problems that are about to ruin someone's day - get it right the first time. Mosler and Diebold locks in need of service will certainly test your mettle!!
Accordingly, the MINIMUM safe combination change fee we assess is $39.00 each. Vault doors are certainly higher. This is in addition to any trip/service charge or materials. You can't possibly have the needed tools, equipment, knowledge and data and do it for less - anywhere! As with any other lock service, you must charge the value of the time you invest at each job to satisfy your overhead and pay yourself.
Whether you are a full time locksmith or drive trucks most of the time, I doubt that the heating and air conditioning serviceman, or electrician called to your place is going to give you a roaring deal because the job 'looked simple'. To be sure, he's going to get the last penny that can be pried out of your wallet before he walks out the door.
Hubert Curry, CML
***** ********** ********** **********
********** ***** Roger Shoaf wrote:
Absolutely. Most of the safes I come across are in pretty good/new condition. However, I am sure in the safe world this is a small percent in comparison to the many older safes still out there in operation (which would love to cause combo change problems). What classes would you recommend/do you know about. Are there more correspondance courses out there, or is this an in-class sort of subject. Any info would be great. Thanks a bunch.
First thing to do would be to join your local locksmiths association. They usually have lots of classes especially at the annual trade show/convention.
There are correspondence courses but I think that it would be best to have the hands on class first. It is a whole lot easier to have the immediate feedback of an instructor rather than waiting for days while you get an answer.
I have never taken a locksmith class where I didn't learn something, even in those cases where I had more experience than the guy / or gal giving the class. Often suppliers will sponsor classes and the modest cost usually gets you some nice tools, mounted samples and lunch. I always made it my policy to do the bulk of my business with the suppliers that treated me well, even though I might save a buck or two.. Something to consider when dealing with suppliers. Also the larger your orders the better deals you can cut.
This price is a reasonable start for most non-key change locks for a key change lock it's a little on the high side. Lots of places treat key change combo changes and even some others as a loss leader to get their sticker on the safe. You're really doing something the lock was designed for the end user to do anyway. 6 months later and a lock out occurs or they just need a newer better safe and that sticker with the phone number is stuck right to the door who are they going to call?
not really... one must assume the same liability either way.
"Lots of places treat key change combo changes and even some others as a loss leader" really ? I never heard of any. the "sticker' is simply good for repeat business...
if "the end user" felt comfortable changing it ? they wouldn't call for it to be done.
agree... the reason for the sticker to begin with !
I personally don't care for Locksmith Associations. ALOA, comes to mind... as far as our local association, they are very unorganized. they can't even keep up with earn credits for attending their meetings. many supliers can arrange classes also.
sometimes the "waiver" is not woth the paper its writen on. when a customer has problems within a reasonable length of time. you worked on it last and you can be held responcable. bottom line, it depends on the courts opinion.
we have a Government customer that we change safe combo's for. but we are NOT allowed to know the combonation. we are to turn our head while the officer in charge dials the new combo. many times we have to re-line up the wheel pack and start over. one time I started over 6 times :-)
that would be nice (if it could be done?) but arouind here, one may be accused of price gouging. besides, thats what we pay "work completed" insurance for...
agree...
add some here, take some there. its all the same. one needs to get what the job is worth.
are you saying that you will do a key change without also doing a lock inspection and or needed service ? maybe I misunderstood your above comment but to me, that would be pretty risky and raise the odds of a job failure.
actually I have seen it be the case many times.
seen that many times too...
the one that gives the better service should win out in the long run. I have many customers that have tried out the other side of the fence, so to speek. these same customers usually end up calling me back. they don't mind paying the difference because of the difference in service. (the trick is the way you service the customer) after all, they did choose to spend their $$$'s with you.
This is especially important if you are just starting out and trying to build business. You are going to have to undercut a little where you can afford to to build clients. That doesn't mean to undercut where you can't afford to though just to get a job.
(true story)
With a key change lock this is true usually where the people either have 0 mechanical aptitude and can barely dial the combo or where they just don't have any instruction or don't have a change key. Key change locks are well designed and it's hard to screw up if you follow directions. Most common problem is that they set an unknown combo. Not a big problem unless they never try it out with the door open (3 times minimum 5 is better) and close and lock the door. If this happens try permutations of the combo they think they set offset by the distance from the opening index to the changing index. A lot of times people will set their new combo with one or more numbers in it on the opening index instead of the changing index.
Next most common they set the last # in the forbidden zone, which either does nothing at all because the actual forbidden zone is smaller than the official forbidden zone for the lock or if there is a problem 98 times out of 100 the lock gets jammed in the unlocked position and won't lock. If there has to be a problem this is ideal, because now usually they CAN'T lock the safe until the problem is fixed. What ain't ideal is the rare occaision when they do manage to force it to lock with the door shut. Then the next time the combo is dialed the lever and fence might drop or it might not.
But yes, at the end of the day advertising is a
Probably a good idea. If you are really interested you should start by buying some safe locks and study them until you have a thorough understanding of exactly how they work. S&G 6730 is cheap and a good starting point. LaGard 3330 is cheap too and almost the same lock.
Liability here to me is 0. They sign a waiver which also certifies that they have operated the safe after the combo change and found operation to be satisfactory, this is the key because without it the waiver wouldn't have any teeth. Key change locks are very reliable anyway. Even if somebody who doesn't know what they are doing sets the combo in the forbidden zone 98 times out of 100 all that will happen, if anything, is that the lock winds up jammed unlocked, which is the ideal failure state for it to be in. Modern safe locks are marvels of simple reliable design. Besides the extra $24 is a drop in the bucket if you truely wind up on the hook for a lockout. If you are looking for any real significant offset against the hassle if something goes wrong charge $100 minimum.
You have to get the sticker on the safe to begin with. If they call me and you you won't get yours on there because I will be doing the combo change since I undercut your price, if yours or somebody elses is on there already I'll slap mine right over it (nothing personal business is business). I can undercut you on it because I'm already getting my time compensated with a trip charge and $15 is fine for the time it takes to actually change a combo. If it's not a key change lock, needs service, etc I probably won't be willing to but for a combo change on a key change lock I'll do it everytime. Now if they want the lock inspected/serviced great but that's an additional charge. Their choice.
Actually thats frequently not the case. Often they don't have a change key.
Sticker doesn't help if you don't get the combo change job to get it on the safe and with one guy charging $39+ trip and one charging $15+ trip all other things being equal who do you think they are going to hire? Lot's of things are loss leaders. Whatever you charge to copy a key I'll bet it's less than the blank + wear and tear + your time to do it is really worth to you. Taking into account inflation, equipment required etc a key duplicate should really cost $5 or so minimum. How many people actually charge that for a run of the mill key though?
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:28:58 -0700, 'Key snipped-for-privacy@Ya.Net wrote:
No offense but I'll take my lawyers word on the value of my particular waiver over yours. Signing a statement that you personally operated something and it performed satisfactorily is a powerful thing to try and overcome. Much more so than simply signing a statement saying you hold so and so harmless just because. Ultimately I'll stand by my earlier statements. These locks are reliable. If you can successfully operate the lock 3-5 times without problem it's fine. If something really seems iffy then I also have a statement on the waiver that they declined service. There's lots of talk about the .001% of times a safe lock fails. Nobody ever talks about the 99.999% of the time it works just like it's supposed to over and over and over.
Well in all fairness you are talking about the govt. ;)
Then not to break your balls but why are we talking liability then? We aren't really talking about liability we are talking you or whoever wants
39.00 + for 5 minutes work (assuming you charged a trip charge to cover drive time, fuel etc). That's fine if they will pay and don't call somebody else but I have gotten a lot of VERY good paying jobs out of people I did some modest priced thing that took next to no effort for.
I always offer inspection and strongly reccomend service if it needs it and warn them of the possible consequences BUT they are the customer, it isn't up to me to reach in their pocket and decide how much money to take. It has to be the manager/owner etc. I'm not going to let some cashier decide whether to have it serviced or not. But if person in authority is telling me Jane Doe got fired today and has the combo and dammit they don't want any service "ok please carefully read (usually they don't) and sign (they do or I don't work on it) the waiver,.......... Ok sir it's set, I've tested it please test it also and sign here (nobody has ever refused to test the combo nobody is that stupid), 2nd copy is yours thank you very much, have a nice day". Only once I refused to set a combo and told them to call somebody else: caller SAID they just needed the combo changed and told me what it was some drop safe maybe Allied Cary I don't remember, Lagard 3330. Quoted them the usual charge with and without inspection didn't want inspection just change the combo. Ok. get there and it's jammed unlocked because of FZ problem when employee tried to set combo, "We tried to get it loose with that" (points to big pair of vise grips that left marks all over the dial, hammer laying next to the vise grips didn't ask but probably they were beating on them with it) Didn't want the lock inspected, didn't even want the back cover taken off. Just change the combo. Maybe they thought I could do better with the vise grips than they did I don't know but I politely refused, gave them the number of a guy I never much liked and left. Billed them for the trip. They never paid and the useless collection company never collected it either but oh well, costs more to go to small claims than it's worth.
They will almost all initially make the decision on price. After Larry Darrel and Darrel come over and mess it up THEN they go for quality.
You might as well toss the waiver forms out the window. Assume for the sake of argument that you screw up and use the wrong key and the wheels are not fully locked. A day or two goes by and the safe will not open. they call you and you say "not my problem".
They call someone else and upon disassembly he finds that one or two wheels are not locked.
If this were to happen, and you were sued, your waiver is not worth squat. You had a duty to do the job in a workman like manner. And no piece of paper changes that.
IMO you would be better off just making sure they can open the safe before you leave. If they call you back, try and talk them through it, if it doesn't help, then you go out and diagnose the problem and deal with it.
While it has never happened to me, if I went back and lets say sure enough the lock would not open. I would open the safe, and if I found a broken fly was the reason, I would repair the safe and apologize for their inconvenience. The reason I would do this is because it was my job to inspect the lock and make sure that nothing was wrong when I work on something.
Where a waiver does come in handy and is a valid tool, might be a time where you inspect the lock and inform the customer that a problem exists and the safe should be repaired before locking it. Now that has validity if they get locked out because you had proof that you had warned them, and they opted not to accept your advice.
Boy and here I've been taking legal advice from a lawyer. I should have gone to alt.locksmithing. I need some contractual contingincies drawn up. Are you available?
Assume for the
Ok. Not likely but OK.
A day or two goes by and the safe will not open. they
I wouldn't say that unless they tried to be obnoxious pricks, otherwise I would go look at it but make sure that they understood that if it wasn't related to an error when the combo was changed there would be a charge.
If he tells me that then I would pay the bill.
The next time I have a legal issue remind me to give you a call. Do you do wills, contracts, real estate what is your specialty?
You underestimate the value of a good attorney. A piece of paper + good attorney = a case that as likely as not will never even get to court. That said if it's my fault I would take care of it the waiver is insurance if it isn't. The lawyer is insurance for the same reason. I had one guy years ago try to file a completely frivilous suit. Acted as his own attorney. Turned it over to the laywer. Dismissed for improper procedure with the filing. Filed it again. Dismissed again same reason. Filed it again (persistent SOB) this time it got to the motions stage. Lawyer burried him in paper, every day another motion served. Wasn't long before he failed to file an answer to our discovery in time which means that all requests for admissions are considered legally admitted. Lawyer filed motion for summary judgement citing his "admissions". Granted. He even had to pay my attorney's fees because the judge found his actions frivilous in that he filed a suit and then failed to respond to the legal process. His suit was frivilous and he wouldn't have won anyway but he didn't even get it heard, which means I didn't have to waste a day standing around in court. Hell I never even went to court for the motions the lawyer did them.
As I already said I do that. And the waiver confirms I did it in writing. You if you have no waiver it's your word against there's. They say: "he just left, never showed me anything, it never worked after he worked on it". You say that's not true. Who cares what you say? You can't prove it. Your word against their's.
If they call you back, try and talk them through it, if it
And if they had told you they didn't want you to inspect the damn lock just change the combo? it isn't my job to decide what service the customer HAS to pay for. They get options and explanations of the options and they make a decision. If they want someone to hold their hand and MAKE them do what's in their best interst they need to go somewhere else.
Covers that too. If you don't use one and they simply say you never told them any such thing what the hell are you gonna do then? Your word against theirs which is a wash. Your gonna waste days dealing with legal BS. Me I'm not gonna waste any time because any lawyer they go to is gonna tell them they have no case when they find out there was a waiver signed OR tell them no contingency and bill them and when they get the 3rd or 4th of those $1000 legal bills in a couple months they are gonna drop it anyway.
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