Top-end safe : Digital or Group 1 lock??

I am not a locksmith but sometimes I play one at home :). I have read extensively online and replaced and rekeyed my own Schlage Primus door locks, etc, but I have had to rely on advice from my local locksmiths (who are not all necessarily competent) and am up in a quandry at this point. I am ready to install an in-residence safe. Although it is in a residence I have actually settled upon a commercial quality drill resistant laminated plate Class TL30 vault type multiply bolted directly to a reinforced steel concrete foundation. Fireproofing is not much of a concern. Price is not as much an issue as is the primary concern of eliminating professional entry via the door/lock in under 36 hours. The ones I'm looking at are almost all semi-custom made with multiple options.

My question, from the experts here, is what type of lock to opt for. My choices are generally a Group 1 (something along the lines of and S&G 84xx series with a glass plate relock trip) and random sensors, vs. one of the newer digital touch pad locks. I was also considering something like a Kaba Mas X-09, but 1. $1900, seems a little much for just a glorified digital combo lock and 2, my local locksmiths are clueless about it and won't even work with me on it.

As far as the prior two options, I've gotten so much runaround from my usual local 'experts' as to which is more effective. Even in all the manufacturer detailed specs I've seen NONE have 'comparitively rated' the electronic locks relative to a Group 1/2 lock in so far as locksmith/burgular proof? There just isn't enough on the net about them? I've been able to learn just about everything about mechanical locks from how they're built to how to break them, but nothing on electronic locks.It would seem to me a 7 digit digital combo with 1-10 million possibilities would be far superior to a 50K-200K poss. mechanical one. Plus, all else being equal, I'd personally prefer a 7 or 8 digit keypad to a dial. Are there major drawbacks or disadvantages with them? Are they easily bypassed/reprogrammed by a pro? Are there secret factory overrides that everyone knows? Are they susceptible to RF or uWaves? What about the loss of battery power or overloading? I haven't been able to find ANY notes about breaking them like with the mechanical locks, but they are still relatively new. I've read that in some cases the solenoid can be bypassed with a large magnet? How prone are they to drill attack? Are they able to be configured with additional internal sensors to detect drilling or tilt motion? As a programmer it would seem to me that if you are passing a signal into the safe via wire(s) to open it, that someone with a laptop or less should be easily able to break off the keypad and wire right into that line. I'm not looking for details on breaking them (unless something already exists out there that I missed reading)? But I AM interested in knowing why, if they are as secure as they appear to be, and as advertised by many of my local so called experts, then why are they not being used EVERYWHERE and why have not all mechanical locks gone the way of the wringer washingmachine? I figured there would be no better place to ask than those who would prefer to preserve mechanical locks. :) Go ahead, give me your worst bias on them. Thanks, Mike

Reply to
mike
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sorry I don't have time to answer all your questions, but I will say this.. TL30 = a tool entry rating of not less then 30 mins. we'll let the experts talk about the different ratings.. i.e torch, tool, & or explosive. I've put on maybe 20 of the Kaba X series locks. and there's a reason the US Gov't uses only these for classified red lable containers. Sounds to me like you need a vault. but then again the longest I've had to work on a vault to get it open was 11 hours much less 36 hours. My advice to you "go with a very good alarm" and pick a safe with with a rating of more then the average response time of the local pd and don't forget the cellular and battery backup for the alarm. A dog would be nice.. pardon the grammer, it's just my 2 cents worth... or I should say free advice.. can't beat that with a cyber stick! Roger p.s. everybody feel free to offer advice to this gentleman, but don't give me a hard time about taking 11 hours to open a vault door. You weren't there! And YES I HAVE HEARD OF SOME THAT TOOK LONGER! But I wasn't there...(Must've turned that job down) lol

Reply to
Roger Cann

36 hours? There is no safe or vault rated against professional attack for 36 hours that I am aware of. A very good safe rating would be Trtl60X6 which will resist expert attack not utilizing a thermal lance or explosives for 60 minutes and a TL30 is not rated against torch attack at all. S&G 84xx and 85xx locks are rated 20 hours against manipulation and in the case of some individual models like the 8560 also 20 hours against radiological attack. The TL30 will keep out pretty much any yutz with a sledge and crowbar for a long time but experts with professional tools and no concern for damage can beat the 30 minute rating by using tools it isn't rated against. True to varying degrees for almost any safe. There is always a new tool or technique somebody has come up with since the box came out.

The ones I'm looking at are almost all semi-custom made with

My advice: Unless you need audit capability use the S&G 84xx or 85xx series. You don't need the X-09 unless you have to have audit capability in a pseudo mechanical lock (X-09 is for all intensive purposes an electronic lock with a more or less conventional dial interface). The time required to open any 3 wheel group 1 lock is more than enough in the real world when backed up by an alarm.

Electronic locks in general are not as reliable and probably never will be. Also keep in mind that if you don't keep the keypad clean (obviously doesn't apply to the X-09) and use it much the possible combos will be reduced exponentially just by careful examination of it. There is also potential for attack using various inks that are invisible to the naked eye to determine digits in the combo. Use a good (probably for the level of security you want monitored commercial grade) alarm and you will probably be fine with the TL30 and whatever S&G lock you slap on it. If in doubt ask your insurance carrier what safe/lock ratings they require based on the $ value you want to keep in it. No matter what the alarm is a must for good security, keep in mind that many safe locks also have micro switches for activating an alarm under various circumstances. Download the S&G catalog from their website for details. Also if you are really worried consider putting a mini safe or money chest inside the main safe or vault which will really spoil a burglars day. The ultimate security measure is to simply hide the whole setup where nobody will find it. They can't steal what they don't know is there. I even know of several people who have done this AND used an empty but locked decoy safe in plain site to waste a potential burglars time.

Reply to
Steve

I greatly appreciate the responses so far and they have given me some additional insights. Thank you.

I already have a fairly thorough alarm system (which as you know CAN be bypassed by nearly any modern competent burgular) as well as a decoy safe full of important looking but useless docs and 'booty'. I HAVE investigated custom vaults as well, but most would not fit in the space alotted (approx 50"x36"x50") or lend themselves well to camoflage, practicality (for the size), price value or privacy (a bunch of construction workers hanging around for days tends to attact undue attention).

"-A very good safe rating would be Trtl60X6 which will resist expert attack not utilizing a thermal lance or explosives for 60 minutes and a TL30 is not rated against torch attack at all.-"

With all due respect, those 'tested' results, as I understand them, are all under 'UL laboratory' conditions and assuming no noise restraints (explosives), no 'stealth' necessity (carrying torches and equipment into a private home without anyone noticing) , and the approriate heavy duty equipment all sitting at the ready in advance, etc. I feel in real-life situations, with some advantage of surprise, 36 hours is not that unreasonable.

The first responding poster, who mentioned a limitation based upon pd response, had a great idea, but assumes: 1. pd WILL bother to respond in < 36hr . 2. You WANT/can expect the pd to respond 3. The pd could/would do much to stop the infiltration. Hiring a private, rapid response, security service, is not only extremely expensive in some areas, but also brings on much more attention that you have something to protect. Some burgulars infiltrate security services just to find out which places to rob.

If you think these restrictions are too unreasonable, then please just let me know what YOUR "dream safe components" would be and which options would maximize break-thru time, strictly based on physical deterrants. Assume the burgular KNOWS you have something worth stealing, but not necessarily where it is (within the residence) or how it is protected.

Thanks again, Mike

Reply to
mike

Otawa Canada

Hi Miike:

Actually if you want to keep papers and currency in the safe, you want a Composite safe, designed to resist both robbers and fire.

TXTL60 x 6 for the robber resistence will make the average burglar either think there is something very valuable inside, or he will wish he had broken into someone else's house.

Fr as your modern alarm system goes, a properly installed UL rated High Security Direct alarm using all UL rated components and properly installed is darned hard to bypass.

Yes it is expensive both in terms of installation and line charges for the dedicated circuit back to the alarm station as well as monitoring, but if the robbers decide to break the circuit, it will automatically go into alarm status and the alarm company will send the police and a repairman out forthwith.

You may also wish to install security cameras around your home so you can see who the robbers are and their license number on their truck or car. This information helps the police a lot.

Most home alarms use telephone dialers and are NOT UL rated although the alarm companies that sell them crow about their monitoring station being UL rated. However they are loathe to tell you what the UL rating on their station is.

Check with your insurance man as to the kind of safe their underwriters specify for what you want to keep in it and if in doubt, buy one higher rated.

Brian

"mike" ( snipped-for-privacy@pcap.com) writes:

Reply to
Brian K.Lingard

Good monitored alarms are not particularly easy to bypass. If you are relying on the typical residential 'dialer' type unit that is not what I would consider a good alarm, unless it's backed up by an RF transmitter, then it depends on the model and the quality of the install. SOP of most semi-competent house burglars is to cut the phone wires and/or try to locate and smash the panel before the entry delay runs out.

as well as a decoy

If they do it daytime typically they will bring it in through the garage if you have one or use a service type vehicle, plumbing, HVAC, etc, if you are talking about real pros.

and the approriate heavy

The rating is strictly working time no setup etc. For tooling changes etc the clock stops. They also have detailed knowledge of the design. BUT there are also certain tools they do not use. For example on a TL rated container they won't use a torch. A torch in the hands of a skilled operator will open a TL rated container a lot faster than the tools it's rated against. They won't use explosives on anything not rated for explosives. They won't use a lance for any rating I'm aware of. Contrary to many peoples opinion lances are now small portable and very controlable. Less bulky than a torch and less risk of fire due to much shorter working time.

IMHO 36 hours is totally unrealistic unless you are talking about a crackhead kid who's tools consist of a big hammer and prybar. He may well not get a tl30X6 open in a week. If you are talking about a professional burglar who knows safe cracking in 36 hours he will have cracked your safe, fenced whatever was in it and left the state. The equipment required really is not that big a deal to get in position. Safes are made to be backed up by an alarm they are not designed or intended to resist sustained and uninterrupted expert attacks.

The PD will respond if you have a monitored alarm through a reputable company. If you have a lot of false alarms and become known as a 'problem' address they may well respond slower. If you have only a siren they may or may not respond at all. As far as infiltration of security services an alarm company doesn't need to know you have a safe. Keep control of your systems installer code and make modifications to zones etc as you require them.

You asked so an ISM TRTL 60X6. New or from anybody who knows what it is it will be very expensive. But deals are possible. I saw a like new ISM TRTL

30X6 model on ebay for $500 from someone with no clue what it was worth last year but somebody else beat me to it.

That said I would not trust any safe beyond it's UL rating. And 36 HOURS?? There is nothing out there I would trust anywhere near that long. Not against a professional. Good security practice requires a good alarm and intervention in less time than the safe's rating, preferably a response time of 50% or less of the safes rating. Ask your local PD or your insurance company for the average police response time in your area. If you are talking about a safe with no torch rating and in all liklihood no thermal relockers I would cut the rated time by 2/3 to be safe.

Assume the burgular KNOWS you have something worth

Reply to
Steve

UL rule is ACTUAL tool USE.. holding it in your hand changing a drill bit-the clock is NOT running.. the drill IS turning-the clock runs.. so the 30 or 60 minute time IS actually in real time, a LONG time.

--Shiva--

Reply to
me

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