Energy source?

Greetings, all,

A non-engineer friend asked me a question recently, and I was a bit surprised and embarrassed that I couldn't answer it. So, I thought maybe some bright mind or helpful soul here in the group could help me out.

Imagine a pneumatic cylinder with thick, rigid walls. The ports at both ends of the cylinder are open, and the piston is at the mid-point of its range of travel. If we plug the port at one end of the cylinder, then the air in that end is trapped and can't escape.

We'll leave the port at the other end of the cylinder open, and lift the cylinder up out of the atmosphere and into space. We're not orbiting the cylinder, just lifting it straight up, as with an elevator, or a rocket on a perfectly vertical path. As the cylinder gains altitude, the air at the open end is exhausted. To simplify things, let's imagine that the cylinder is perfectly insulated, so that we don't have to deal with heating or cooling of the air that remains in the closed end of the cyclinder.

Let's assume that we've arranged some kind of locking mechanism, so that the piston can't move until we decide to release it. When the cyclinder has been lifted completely out of the atmosphere, we have vacuum on one side of the piston, and air on the other side (at roughly

15 PSI). This pressure differential represents stored energy, which could be used to do work if the lock were released and the piston were allowed to move.

Now, here's the question: How do we account for the source of that energy? Obviously, we did work on the cyclinder while lifting it; but that can be accounted for by increased gravitational potential. We could get all that lifting energy back (less friction and efficiency, of course), just by letting the cyclinder fall back to Earth. But the energy stored in the pressurized air is something else. We don't exhaust the captured air, so we're not lifting a different mass than we'll lower, later on. We just let that air expand within the cylinder so that the piston will move, and will do some work while in space. Later, as we let the cylinder fall back into the atmosphere, the piston will return to its original position as air enters the still open end of the cylinder, and the pressure will again be equalized.

Or, we could lock the piston in place after letting the cylinder do its work in space, and then lower it into the atmosphere with the piston held at the open end. In that case, when we got back on the ground, we'd have one atmosphere of pressure at the open end of the cyclinder, and less than one atmosphere at the closed end. This would represent another pressure differential (in the opposite direction), which could be used to do even more work after the cyclinder was returned to Earth.

So, we've done work out in space as the trapped air expanded; and we've done even more work back on Earth, as the piston returned to its original position. We've captured and used some energy; which means there MUST be an equivalent loss or reduction of energy elsewhere in the environment. But I can't figure out where it is, or how to account for it.

This is only a hypothetical problem, of course - more of a brain teaser than a real challenge. But it's been bugging the heck out of me.

Any hints?

KG __ I'm sick of spam. The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.

Reply to
Kirk Gordon
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Dear Kirk Gordon:

Best to say this as 15 psia...

You actually get a little boost from the atmosphere, which trys to lift you into space... just a tiny bit. So you gain a little energy going out, and force it back in coming in.

You do work lifting the cylinder out of the Earth's atmosphere, but not as much as if we had no atmopshere. You get work back by lowering into the atmosphere, but not as much as if we had no atmosphere. You are heating the atmosphere.

David A. Smith

Reply to
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)

That sounds like a zero sum, to me. I understand buoyancy, but it doesn't add/subtract any net work or energy in the case of a round trip.

Heating it with what? I admit to being stumped, here; but I don't want to be confused, too. If I do work with stored pressure when I get to space, and then do some more work with stored low pressure when I get back to Earth, then I'm CONSUMING energy at both ends, not producing it. Where did the EXTRA energy come from to heat the atmosphere?

Did you mean that I'm somehow TAKING heat from the atmosphere?

KG

Reply to
Kirk Gordon

remember that the air in the cylinder has some mass

In lifting the mass of air out of the gravitational field, you do some work--this work is the source of the energy (pressure) that you can tap when in the vacuum of space.

If you allow the piston to move in space, the density of the air is reduced. When you drop the cylinder back into the gravity field, the air is actually bouyant, and you have to push it down to get it back to ground level. The negative pressure energy you have when you get back to ground level is a result of that work.

Reply to
Michael

Do your energy balance incorporating the effect of buoyancy.

A l-o-n-g time ago, when it was still funny, the National Lampoon ran a feature on famous inventions, one of which was the Steingarten Energy Tube. It was a vertical tube, several thousand feet tall, open at both ends, in which a turbine/generator was installed. The high pressure air at the sea level entry to the tube rushed up into the relative vacuum at altitude at the top of the tube, spun the turbine, and provided free energy.

The article didn't say so, but the idea was probably blocked by a conspiracy of multinationals who would be bankrupted by free energy.

No one knows what happened to Dr. Steingarten.

Hope this helps, Fred Klingener

Reply to
Fred Klingener

Ah! I didn't think of it till you mentioned it, and I don't recall where or when; but I remember reading about that, once upon a time. If I were to take a guess, I'd guess that Steingarten either got sucked into the tube and shredded by the turbine (thereby eliminating the concerns of the conspirators), or he was teaching physics at the high school that my daughter attends.

I'm curious, though. What did Steingarten propose to do when all the high pressure air near the Earth had been drained into the upper atmosphere?

Thanks for helping!

KG

Reply to
Kirk Gordon

Ok. I get it now. I knew about the mass of the air; but since the air only expands within the cylinder, and isn't allowed to escape into space, the mass on descent will be the same as it was when lifting. I hadn't thought about the volume being different, and therefore the overall density/buoyancy of the package.

The friend who asked this question isn't a "free energy" crackpot kind of guy. He's bright, and imaginative; but not real familiar with physics. Normally, when I hear one of these ideas from any source, the flaws stick out like sore thumbs, and I can dismiss them, or explain them (depending on whom I'm talking with) without much thought or effort.

This one stumped me, though, which spoiled my whole day. Thanks for helping. Or, thanks for nothing, if you've ruined my chance to become a trillionaire energy baron.

KG

Reply to
Kirk Gordon

Hmmm... Interesting point. Well, I don't know what Steingarten might have proposed, but it seems to me that all that warm, moist, previously high-pressure air getting dumped into the upper atmosphere would really upset the whole project. Instead of warm air being drawn from below, it would now be dumped from above and mess up the weather patterns of the entire planet, big-time.

I'm talking about a disaster of biblical proportions... ice storms at the equator... arid heat at the poles... forty years of darkness... dogs and cats living together... the Cubs winning the World Series... all sorts of weird crap! Sheesh! It'd be terrible!

Scotty

*** This post was written using 100% recycled words ***
Reply to
Scotty

Note you said "zero sum" for the entire trip. You get work out of the stored atmosphere when up, and work from the external atmopshere when re-emersed. No problems, no surprises.

By compression. When you bring the cylinder into the atmosphere, you compress the atmosphere some tiny amount, and the atmosphere compresses the gas in the cylinder.

On the space end, you are releasing energy the atmosphere stored in the compressed gas. On the atmosphere end, you are releasing energy that is built up in the atmosphere itself. And you are doing a *lot* more work in displacing the cylinder to make this happen.

In some sense, you do this when you lift the cylinder into space, yes. And also when you allow the atmosphere to expand ever so slightly to fille the open end of the cylinder.

David A. Smith

Reply to
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)

The energy is taken out of the atmosphere itself. If you want to build a (almost) simple model, consider the atmosphere as a perfect gas with fixed amount of matter and constant temperature trapped in a gravitic field in 1/r^2, and your cylinder into your athomsphere.It is just a conversion of potential "gravitational" energy (athomsphere pressure at the surface) into mechanical work.

Pierre

Ps: I have got far more harder: Consider a giant pair of vertical tubes at the surface of earth. The first one is in communication with the atmosphere. At the bottom of this one, I electrolyse water; water and hydrogen are enclosed in balloons that climb guided by the column. At the top I burn the hydrogen and oxygen enclosed in the balloons, I get water that fall in the second column, a turbine converts this potential energy into electricity for the electrolyse (and somthing else of course)... This is a closed system which produces energy for free. :o)

I havent found the flaw yet. Unless electolyse demands more energy under high pressure...

Reply to
Pierre Burry

"Kirk Gordon" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@news.teranews.com...

Actually it is quite easy whe you turn the question around: "why is the air below and not above?"

Easy one, because of the gravitation of the earth you would answer. So the energy you would win with gaspressure is exactly the one you loose in the difference of potential energy between the full tube going up and the empty tube coming down.

And why do you want to make it difficult? You can do the same thing in a swimmingpool. Use the waterpressure to fill below and release above ....

Timothy

Reply to
Timothy

No, the cylinder's not empty coming back down. I just let it expand within the cylinder to move the piston; but I don't let it escape. That means the mass is the same at all times. What I didn't see, and what someone else pointed out, is that the volume has changed, even if the mass hasn't. That means less density, and different buoyancy on the way up than on the way down. The return trip isn't just a "give back" of the gravitational potential gained during lift. Less is given back, and the difference accounts for the apparently free air pressure.

KG

Reply to
Kirk Gordon

This one's easy. The hydrogen and oxygen from your electrolyzed water DON'T rise up the tube. Oxygen is heavier than air. You can get hydrogen up the tube; but the oxygen balloon will sit on the ground like a lump. If you let the hydrogen rise by itself, and then burn it with atmospheric oxygen when it gets to the top of the tube, you'll get water that falls to the ground; but that'll produce less energy than you consumed to produce the hydrogen in the first place.

Or, to look at it another way, the combined mass of the H and the O are exactly the same whether they're separated into gasses or left alone in liquid form. If water won't rise all by itself, then its components won't either.

KG

Reply to
Kirk Gordon

It came from the portion of the energy used by the elevator in lifting progressvely less of a mass of air. - the portion in the open end. It's stored in the gravitational potential of the original air molecules themselves.

You get it back when that tall, exceedingly tenuous column of air falls back down to fill the jug. (actually, it will push other air in, but the effect is the same.)

Reply to
Rich Grise

Nah, buoyancy has nothing to do with it. I've explained it quite clearly in another post.

I read about something somewhat like this, but the tube wasn't quite as tall, and relied on the temperature of the air. i.e., the air closer to the ground is warmer. You pull some of that through a sort of chimney, and when it gets to altitude, it's actually less dense than the cooler air around it, so it floats, and more air gets pushed in the bottom. They were even talking about big plazas with tarmac pavement and plastic roofs (rooves?) Now that one sounds at least plausible, to me.

Cheers! Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

Think about it... you're separating water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen. Then recombining the oxygen and hydrogen to get water. You get the same amount of energy burning 1kg of hydrogen and oxygen (in correct proportions) that you need to separate 1kg of water into H2 and O2. Like compressing a spring and releasing it. Net sum = 0. Although your column method has friction.

Dave

Reply to
David Harper

It's on the way:

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Mark.

Reply to
Mark W

Y'all are kidding, right? It's sorta hard to tell through text alone.

That tube wouldn't work for the same reason the air at sea-level doesn't rush up to the upper atmosphere on it's own: gravity. Gravity works inside the tube also. The potential energy required to lift a volume of high pressure air (which has mass) to the upper atmosphere cancels out the energy you'd get from the "turbine", which wouldn't turn in the first place. It's not like air at sea level can't get to

100k feet without a tube: the gravitational potential energy requirement to raise its altitude cancels out the potential energy stored in the air in the form of pressure.

Dave

Reply to
David Harper

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