On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 00:24:38 -0500, Richard J Kinch
I think your both right, in your own way. People will never believe
unless they have seen it for themselves. Like bad cops are exemplar
and not rogue. I'm to the point of everything is greased, must be a
secret hand shake to see if they are willing to take and receive a
bribe. Might as well teach bribery in school and get it over with.
Hey, I paid off three teachers to get my diploma, one of them I had to
spot weld Farris wheel seats for a number of evenings.
Try getting a law passed to listen in on the grand jury in your local
area and see the shit fly or your ass flying into jail to prove it to
yourself. Why would they care, say six months down the line?
So, your opinion is supported by facts known only to you. Ed asked for
specifics of the cases you cited, and you did not provide them. Your
only justification for your stance is, in essence, "You wouldn't
understand." That, Richard, is the kind of argument one expects from a
Providing Ed with specifics would not change a thing. It would just
mean a lot of typing to no end. I have seen police cover their badge
numbers, take cameras, and harass people. I could provide specifics,
but you could not check to see that I was telling the truth. There
was nothing in the newspaper. I suspect those that were arrested were
released the next day after spending the night in jail. So do not
think there are any court records.
In short you either believe Richard or not. It makes no difference to
me and I doubt if it matters to Richard.
On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:29:59 -0700 (PDT), " firstname.lastname@example.org"
I know of the inverse case. I read about it in the paper and never
heard of anyone commenting on the subject. Thing is, is that the
newspaper online goes back just a bit and I guess you'd have to pay to
search for it. Some sort of parole officer with 25+ yrs. plows in the
back of a city bus and bails leaving his car, gets a DUI. Year later
same guy causes a bad accident and gets another DUI. Finally the court
date comes around, the DA never shows up.
Ever see Mad Max? 'Someone's gonad have to sit on the Goose, nobody
Bullshit. Each of the two cases Richard referred to resulted in a
felony conviction, one with a couple of months of time in a federal
prison. There most certainly are records of these cases.
Do cops sometimes exceed their authority? Of course they do. I've been
on the receiving end more times than I care to count. But for Richard
to try to base an argument on unprovable "facts" known only to him is
just plain bullshit.
Now, to be fair, let me say that Richard's seltzer making web site
absolutely rules. Just last week, I had the milestone event of
replacing my 20lb CO2 tank. That's a lot of bubbles that I wouldn't
have had the pleasure of drinking had it not been for Richard's work.
I did not read the complete thread. From just reading Richards post
on June 23rd, it sounded like Richard was referring to some
experiences that he had not mentioned. I ought to read the whole
thread, but I am not that interested.
Would it really change your mind if you see the public records and see that
I am telling the truth? Or are you just being polemic? I suspect the
latter; you would be of the same opinion with or without my truthfulness
Once again, please don't pretend to know who I am or what I am
thinking. You can suspect anything you like. Your lack of references
to the cases which formed YOUR opinions does not make it any easier fo
me to form mine, Rather, it makes me suspect that you have an axe to
grind and are fabricating "evidence" to support your position.
These are preposterous, as you've described them, Richard. They sound like
set pieces set up to stroke the right-wing pathology.
If you have some reference to the actual cases, I'll be glad to look into
If they would actually change your mind, then that would be worth it. But
I don't expect they will, so what's the point. Your opinion of our laws
and rulers will not be changed because you see a few examples of despotism.
Right from day one, BP have stated that even if it wasn't directly their
fault, it is their responsibility to sort the mess out. They haven't tried to
avoid _that_ liability at any point. Ok, Hayward speaks English, which is a
foreign language, but he's willingly committed his organisation to, basically,
unlimited liability. I guess the US administration is too used to
organisations such as Exxon and Union Carbide to understand that company CEO's
can actually say what they mean.
In the mean time, until the relief wells intersect with the original bore, all
else is containment. Get off their backs and let the poor, bloody, engineers
do the job they're paid for!
I'm still sitting on the fence. I hope BP does right. From what I've heard on
your CEO stood his ground today. I hope to catch his comments in the middle of
Someone may need hanging, just get the right party over the drop door.
I sure hope the moratorium doesn't extend to relief wells.
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Meantime, the word from Wall Street is that they've hired investment banks
(Goldman Sachs, the Blackstone Group, and Credit Suisse) as advisors to
determine whether they should shift assets from BP Holdings North America to
another of their several dozen entities, or pursue some other strategy to
The total asset value of BPHNA is $50 billion. The company as a whole is
worth $161 billion in long-term assets. By agreeing to the $20 billion
escrow, say some experts, they've acknowledged that they probably can't
fence off their liabilities completely to BPHNA, but they can force the
cases to be heard in British courts, beyond the asset value of BPHNA. That
would slow the process down and probably bankrupt individual filers who
would sue. Think of it as the Exxon defense.
So far it's mostly lip service, legal maneuvering, and token payments.
They're talking a good line while maneuvering to minimize their exposure.
Hey, that's business, right?
They're familiar with multinational businesses and how they operate.
It isn't the engineers who are the problem. One of BP's top engineers has
said that the hole is a "nightmare," referring to shortcuts that were taken
You might want to look at these for further entertainment. 'Hope you weren't
planning a holiday on the Gulf coast by any chance? It's a beautiful place
to see some rare creatures, including marine turtles and birds. Or it was...
Sent: 17 June, 2010 6:04 PM
Subject: The Gulf Disaster: a geologists take
I'm a geologist by trade. In a former life I spent a few years
working oil rigs, a couple of those on offshore rigs. Here's my
analysis and worst fears, based on what I've gleaned from the news
1. To save time/$, they didn't circulate the mud in the borehole
("bottoms up") before they set the liner. Had they done so, they
would have identified the disasterous conditions before the disaster.
2. To save time/$, they "hung" the liner (ran it only from the bottom
of the previous casing, rather than run it all the way up inside the
previous casing to the BOP).
3. To save time/$, they used only 6 liner centralizers rather than the
"recommended" 21 (recommended by whom I don't know). If the hole
deviated at all from vertical (which I'm sure it did), that'd mean
that in places, the liner would be placed up against the borehole
sidewall rather than through the center of the borehole. That'd make
it very hard to get an adequate cement seal of consistent thickness
and strength along the entire length of the liner.
4. To save time/$, they used an inferior cement mix.
5. To save time/$, they didn't run a "cement bond log". To do this,
they run a special tool on a wire line through the recently cemented
interval, and log the qyaulity of the cement bond between the liner
and the formation.
6. To save time/$, they displaced the drilling mud in the riser (above
the BOP up to the drill rig on the surface) with sea water before the
inferior cement had completely set, and without the normal plug in the
casing below the BOP. This would drastically reduce the pressure head
on the formation, and allow formation fluids to enter the borehole.
Now my "worst case" fear:
The bad cement job outside the liner failed; the gas/oil in the
formation, under intense pressure (could be as high as 50,000 psi!)
blew out and eroded the cement and possibly the liner, allowing it to
flow unimpeded and expand quickly due to the pressure release, into
the annular space outside the liner, and possibly into the liner, and
into the previous casing. THE WORST WORST CASE: if they were to cap
the well at the BOP, the pressure would overwhelm the cement-formation
seal at the previous casing (where they hung the liner), and break
down the higher formations and cement, and flow unimpeded outside the
previous casing and BOP to the seafloor surface (cf: the Santa Barbara
spill). If that was the case, there would be NO WAY to control the
flow until the relief wells are completed (in August). Maybe that's
why they "failed" to cap the well at the BOP.
Joe Barton should be hanged.
Sorry, just my $0.02 worth.
Gawwwd...it sounds awful. Eventually we'll probably get a complete rundown
on that stuff, but I hope that scenario isn't anything like the other
deep-water wells out there.
As for Barton, in the old days, say a century and a half ago, the other
Senators would have tarred and feathered him, and then dumped him in a cold
pond somewhere. Sometimes I long for the days when Senators beat each other
with their canes -- back when they really adhered to the original
Might as well bring back sidearms and dueling and get back to the real
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Here is a slightly different story copied from an e-mail I received
from a drilling guy of my acquaintance, who received it from someone
else so take it for what it is worth.
This well had been giving some problems all the way down and was a big
discovery. Big pressure, 16ppg+ mud weight. They ran a long string of
7" production casing - not a liner, the confusion arising from the
fact that all casing strings on a floating rig are run on drill pipe
and hung off on the wellhead on the sea floor, like a "liner".
They cemented this casing with lightweight cement containing nitrogen
because they were having lost circulation in between the well kicking
all the way down. The calculations and the execution of this kind of a
cement job are complex, in order that you neither let the well flow
from too little hydrostatic pressure nor break it down and lose the
fluid and cement from too much hydrostatic. But you gotta believe BP
had 8 or 10 of their best double and triple checking everything.
On the outside of the top joint of casing is a seal assembly -
"packoff" - that sets inside the subsea wellhead and seals. This was
set and tested to 10,000 psi, OK. Remember they are doing all this
from the surface 5,000 feet away. The technology is fascinating, like
going to the moon or fishing out the Russian sub, or killing all the
fires in Kuwait in 14 months instead of 5 years. We never have had an
accident like this before so hubris, the folie d'grandeur, sort of
takes over. BP were the leaders in all this stretching the envelope
all over the world in deep water.
This was the end of the well until testing was to begin at a later
time, so a temporary "bridge plug" was run in on drill pipe to set
somewhere near the top of the well below 5,000 ft. This is the second
barrier, you always have to have 2, and the casing was the first one.
It is not known if this was actually set or not.
At the same time they took the 16+ ppg mud out of the riser and
replaced it with sea water so that they could pull the riser, lay it
down, and move off. When they did this, they of course took away all
the hydrostatic on the well. But this was OK, normal, since the well
was plugged both on the inside with the casing and on the outside with
the tested packoff. But something turned loose all of a sudden, and
the conventional wisdom would be the packoff on the outside of the
Gas and oil rushed up the riser; there was little wind, and a gas
cloud got all over the rig. When the main inductions of the engines
got a whiff, they ran away and exploded. Blew them right off the rig.
This set everything on fire. A similar explosion in the mud pit / mud
pump room blew the mud pumps overboard. Another in the mud sack
storage room, sited most unfortunately right next to the living
quarters, took out all the interior walls where everyone was hanging
out having - I am not making this up - a party to celebrate 7 years of
accident free work on this rig. Seven BP bigwigs were there visiting
In this sense they were lucky that the only ones lost were the 9 rig
crew on the rig floor and 2 mud engineers down on the pits. The
furniture and walls trapped some and broke some bones but they all
managed to get in the lifeboats with assistance from the others.
The safety shut ins on the BOP were tripped but it is not clear why
they did not work. This system has 4 way redundancy; 2 separate
hydraulic systems and 2 separate electric systems should be able to
operate any of the functions on the stack. They are tested every 14
days, all of them. (there is also a stab on the stack so that an ROV
can plug in and operate it, but now it is too late because things are
The well is flowing through the BOP stack, probably around the outside
of the 7" casing. As reported elsewhere, none of the "rams", those
being the valves that are suppose to close around the drill pipe and /
or shear it right in two and seal on the open hole, are sealing. Up
the riser and out some holes in it where it is kinked. A little is
coming out of the drill pipe too which is sticking out of the top of
the riser and laid out on the ocean floor. The volumes as reported
by the media are not correct but who knows exactly how much is coming?
Two relief wells will be drilled but it will take at least 60 days to
kill it that way. There is a "deep sea intervention vessel" on the
way, I don't know if that means a submarine or not, one would think
this is too deep for subs, and it will have special cutting tools to
try to cut off the very bottom of the riser on top of the BOP. The
area is remarkably free from debris. The rig "Enterprise" is standing
by with another BOP stack and a special connector to set down on top
of the original one and then close. You saw this sort of thing in Red
Adair movies and in Kuwait, a new stack dangling from a crane is just
dropped down on the well after all the junk is removed. But that is
not 5,000 ft underwater.
One unknown is if they get a new stack on it and close it, will the
bitch broach around the outside of all the casing??
In order for a disaster of this magnitude to happen, more than one
thing has to go wrong, or fail. First, a shitty cement job. The
wellhead packoff / seal assembly, while designed to hold the pressure,
is just a backup. And finally, the ability to close the well in with
the BOP somehow went away.
A bad deal for the industry, for sure. Forget about California and
Florida. Normal operations in the Gulf will be overregulated like the
N. Sea. And so on.
The following is the Drilling guy's comments and can be taken at face
I hope this satisfies your curiosity for while. It is written slanted
in favor of the oil company maybe, but not pointing fingers at anyone
with the drilling contractor or the third party service contractors.
With Obama hollering that BP is going to pay for everything is just
another bunch of bullshit that someone in congress has told him to
say. Means nothing. But there is going to be a lot of new regulations
put in place whenever that bunch figures out what else can be
regulated and how/who can create a good business providing for the new
Any oil company operating in the USA deals with governmental
regulations, similar to Indonesia but much more stricter. They have to
be a bona fide company to acquire a lease to explore on. PT
Holeinthewall would definitely get turned down. Then before they
drill, they have to submit their plans to a government body called MMS
(Mineral Management Service). It used to be the USGS (United States
Geological Service) but MMS was created about 1982, when I was in the
US taking in some seminars in Texas and Louisiana. Although they have
a lot of dead beats working for them, much like any government
department, that drilling program is well screened and scrutinized
before an oil company can start drilling. Any changes to that drilling
program has to be approved first. During the drilling, MMS does
'surprise' helicopter trips to rigs to check to see if the required
casing, BOP, drilling equipment has been tested before it's tested
expiry dates. They are serious! I done a well control school in
Lafayette and a lot of the questions on the exam pertained to US rules
and regulations. Didn't mean anything to me because I was never going
to work in the USA, but I had to memorize them to pass.
Then, just as anywhere else, the oil company takes out insurance on
the well they are drilling in case it is lost. That insurance is
probably thu one outfit that has sold options to a dozen other
insurance companies. They will be paying lawyers good money to find
someone at fault.
John D. Slocomb
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