Battery on the ground

"SteveB" fired this volley in news:ddaab5- snipped-for-privacy@news.infowest.com:

If the ground or concrete is cold enough to freeze it, yes. Otherwise, that's just an old wive's tale.

LLoyd

Reply to
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Loading thread data ...

Steve,

If the battery is dirty, then that will cause a drain of the battery's charge. Place the battery on a wooden board or coke case.

Besides, how long do you plan leaving the battery on the gound?

W. Kirk Crawford Tularosa, New Mexico

Reply to
W. Kirk Crawford

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote in article ...

It was actually true of the old hard-rubber cased batteries.

Electrons WOULD leak through the porous case to ground - eventually discharging the battery.

It is NOT true of today's batteries.

Reply to
*

"W. Kirk Crawford" wrote: If the battery is dirty, then that will cause a drain of the battery's charge. Place the battery on a wooden board or coke case. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If the battery has enough dirt on the outside to conduct electricity, the drain will take place across the top. Setting it on a board or coke case will have no effect. The bottom of the battery could be in contact with a copper stake driven into the earth with no effect. It's not in the circuit.

Reply to
Leo Lichtman

I have heard that if you sit a battery on the ground or concrete that it will lose its charge faster. Is this true?

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

There is SOME truth to the belief. The concrete is generally colder than a wood board, causing the battery to cool down unevenly and the acid to stratify over time. The "heavy" acid goes to the bottom. The "light" water goes to the top. This apparently can cause "stratification sulphation" which degrades part of the plates much more quickly than when stored on an insulating board. Can't find the cite right now, but it was explained by a battery expert a few years back.

There is a reason MOST battery brackets on cars have a plastic tray instead of mounting the battery directly on steel. It is not as serious a problem with today's plastic cases as it was with the old hard rubber cases, but with a large amount of our plastic products coming from China, and the makeup of some of the plastics being less than certain, I would not bet on it not being a problem in the near future.

Reply to
clare at snyder dot ontario do

Yes, in the Winter. Doesn't have to be cold enough to freeze, just cold enough to get stratified layers of acid concentration in there.

Reply to
Andy Dingley

-

B.S.! If that were true batteries sitting in a metal battery holder in the vehicle would discharge. My personal observation on the subject is that batteries with the older vent caps in time built up a deposit of sulfuric acid droplets on the top as a result of charging. When the battery was placed on a cool surface like the ground or a cement floor the battery cooled down and moisture condensed on it and joined the acid to form a conductive path from the + to the -- terminal. I verified this with my multimeter.

(Sorry Don, I enjoy your posts, you usually have the best information.)

Engineman

Reply to
engineman1

Correct.

Reply to
Don Foreman

You ARE joking, right? Martin

Reply to
Martin Whybrow

Are you *'s alter-ego? Martin

Reply to
Martin Whybrow

"Martin Whybrow" wrote in news:CSzEj.818 $ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe6-win.ntli.net:

No.

Reply to
RAM³

"Martin Whybrow" wrote in news:h3AEj.825 $ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe6-win.ntli.net:

No.

Reply to
RAM³

Huh? Read back thru the thread. We're in violent agreement. Batteries do not discharge faster when sitting on concrete. If anything they discharge more slowly if the concrete is cooler than ambient.

Cold batteries have less capacity than warm ones, but they regain it when they warm up again. Self-discharge is a chemical process, and chemical processes proceed more slowly at lower temperatures.

>
Reply to
Don Foreman

No, it won't!

Anecdotal evidence: the batteries that I have sitting on a concrete floor don't discharge any faster than those sitting in vehicles.

Logical argument: in wintertime (or any other time) the ground is alternately warmer than and colder than air temps because air temps vary diurnally while ground temp stays at about the average air temperature -- or slightly warmer if there's no snow and it gets some solar radiation.

Reference or "cite" evidence: "Batteries self-discharge faster at higher temperatures. Lifespan can also be seriously reduced at higher temperatures - most manufacturers state this as a 50% loss in life for every 15 degrees F over a 77 degree cell temperature. Lifespan is increased at the same rate if below 77 degrees, but capacity is reduced. This tends to even out in most systems - they will spend part of their life at higher temperatures, and part at lower.

Myth: The old myth about not storing batteries on concrete floors is just that - a myth. This story has been around for 100 years, and originated back when battery cases were made up of wood and asphalt. The acid would leak from them, and form a slow-discharging circuit through the now acid-soaked and conductive floor."

ref:

formatting link

Reply to
Don Foreman

Here is a theory. If the floor is colder the ambient air, the battery may develop a thermal gradient. Since lead acid batteries have a temperature coefficient that will set up a vertical voltage gradient within the cell. That voltage gradient will cause a current to flow within the cell leading to discharge.

Reply to
Boris Mohar

Theres just too much ancedotal evidence to dismiss this as an old wives tale and this is the only explanation I've heard that makes sense. I can see this happening on a floor that's in contact with the ground, if the concrete was at room temperature , i.e. a second or third story floor, then you shouldn't have a problem. That being said I have stored batteries on concrete floors, I just give a kick every now & then to keep the electrolyte mixed up. :).

The "electrons leaking through the case" only happens with the plates are coated with balonium. ;>.

H.

Reply to
Howard Eisenhauer

Don sez:: " Myth: The old myth about not storing batteries on concrete floors is just that - a myth. This story has been around for 100 years, and originated back when battery cases were made up of wood and asphalt. The acid would leak from them, and form a slow-discharging circuit through the now acid-soaked and conductive floor."

The myth got started because the batteries that were set out on the floor were bad already. That's why they sat 'em aside in the first place. Then some dufus comes along and tests a couple of them and walla! "None o' these here batteries ain't no good, must be the floor!"

Bob Swinney

No, it won't!

Anecdotal evidence: the batteries that I have sitting on a concrete floor don't discharge any faster than those sitting in vehicles.

Logical argument: in wintertime (or any other time) the ground is alternately warmer than and colder than air temps because air temps vary diurnally while ground temp stays at about the average air temperature -- or slightly warmer if there's no snow and it gets some solar radiation.

Reference or "cite" evidence: "Batteries self-discharge faster at higher temperatures. Lifespan can also be seriously reduced at higher temperatures - most manufacturers state this as a 50% loss in life for every 15 degrees F over a 77 degree cell temperature. Lifespan is increased at the same rate if below 77 degrees, but capacity is reduced. This tends to even out in most systems - they will spend part of their life at higher temperatures, and part at lower.

ref:

formatting link

Reply to
Robert Swinney

were bad already. =EF=BF=BDThat's

along and tests a couple of them

I like this explanation. Can anyone describe the path the electrons would take to discharge a battery through an acid soaked floor?

Engineman

Reply to
engineman1

Like some other things I have heard over many, many years I believe this has evolved. I think the rule to not place storage batteries directly on the concrete but on wood instead was because the leaked acid would severely damage the floor. I don't think it originally had anything to do with the batteries discharging. If someone saw a dead battery sitting on concrete with a batch of corrosion all over the bottom, it was easy to believe the concrete had caused the battery to go dead.

Don Young

Reply to
Don Young

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.