Bletchley Park and the Enigma

Then there is the school of thought (as far as I know, undocumented) that Roosevelt and his advisors knew of the impending Japanese raid on Pearl Harbor and just let it happen to protect the JN25 "Purple" decode much in the same manner as Churchill knew that Coventry was going to be hit and did nothing about it.

Regards,

Marv

Eugene Miya wrote:

"Roger Martin" write: Message-ID: Most amusing you posting this thru Berlin

Lend-lease wasn't enough? The Brits and the US cracked many codes. I have 2 samples of raw Purple which I picked up for grins from NARA (both about 2 weeks before Pearl Harbor). I would not just say that there were warnings or that they were ignored. Part of the problem is that US law until this past year does not allow for pre-emption. There were indications of movements and a hole in certain communications, but if definitive proof exists it has yet to be found.

The US was heavily hit by the Isolationist movement of the 30s and wanted to avoid Imperial entanglements.

Andrew wrote:

You refer to the recently published book The Emperor's Codes. Yardley published his part of this in the 30s in the Saturday Evening post and in his book The American Black Chamber. My honorable ancestors apparently were not impressed.

They would have saved a lot of grief were they able to talk to the US Army.

Dornitz?

I have no idea why they chose the Nautilus hull number for that film.

571 gave credit to the various UK and US crews and the German hull numbers. Having a machine didn't buy you much except confirming that they did it was important. I have a a xerox from the National Archives of a memo from England of one analyst's possessions after D-day and he had various captured machines and code books some with blood. One of those German code books is in the Archives complete with leaded binding for sinking. You should write the writers care of the studio.

Mick Jagger produced the movie Engima. I think he owns one. He certain owned the sub in the movie and he gave it to BP.

"Peter Reilley" wrote:

The English had indications of the 4 wheel move. They knew it was merely a matter of time.

4 rotor machines had to be backwards compatible as many continued to have reasons to use 3-rotor machines. There were many of these kinds of cribs. Some of this was covered in a Horizon/Nova special. The real problem was resource, Bombes were in short supply.

Ian Sutherland (sutherland snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com) wrote:

No kidding, I was there in negotiations with them at the same time. Tough budget problems for them.

It was recovered.

;^) Did you want them to clean the place up a bit and then place a bull's eye visible from the air? ;^)

Huts. They call them huts.

No numbers. You had to spell numbers out.

Huh? I think closer to 10 KG or 20 pounds if not heavier.

I like the Brits who dress up like a German signal corps unit. The Brits who dress up like American paratroopers were not there the weekend I was there. And there are a cadre of people who act as Station Y listeners in receiver rooms. Ms. Newton-John's mother started as one of these apparently.

I think 3 survived the war. 1 on display near DC.

Hundreds were made. You have that right, mostly near Dayton Ohio.

Some number of them were apparently made as well with published numbers ranging from 1 unit to 3 dozen.

It's done. It was used in the film Engima if you want to see it (graphics rubber stamped it to appear like they had others).

"Ken Davey" wrote:

I have no idea who Irving is.

The standard texts for the inner workings are Harry Hinley's book (I forget the name) and Gordon Welchman's Hut Six Story.

They said that they were hit by 4 bombs. They blew out some windows and shifted a building off it's foundation but no serious damage. They think that the Germans were aiming for the rail junction in Bletchley town and not Bletchley park.

illuminated.

I guessed at the weight. The actual one was bolted down so I could not lift it.

I was there on a Monday. During the week you cannot wander around, you must stay with the tour guide. Since the staff are all volunteers, they have regular jobs. On the weekend they have more staff and you can wonder around on you own. I did not know this before I went. Next time I will go on a weekend.

When I was there 2 weeks ago they said that the actual working Bombe that they were constructing was not yet done. They had it opened so that I could see the mechanical workings. That looked done. The rotary switches did not look complete.

They had a 4 or 5 Bombe props that were used in the movie.

Pete.

Amusing, Coventry came up in lunch discussion in the Stanford DB group last Friday.

JN25 != Purple. Navy diplomatic codes

I think the Emperor's Codes book has the list of the 3 dozen+ known codes in use toward the end of the WWII.

Outsiders have documented, but it's likely wrong.

Inaction is a difficult somewhat politically unpredictable act. This is why ships usually like to be underway even if slowly.

You don't need to attribute the earlier 118 lines.

Naw, Cray never uses the term cache in the proper sense. It may be a buffer, it may be a local memory, but its not a cache.

2s had 128 memory banks in 4 quadrants. Red skins. 1s had 16 banks.

The site is logicallly compartmentalized for security so one can't see all features. They play for keeps, or hard ball.

I have only visited and given a couple of lectures. I don't have a clearance, so I don't get to see the stuff on the curtained walls. "We have mutual interests." Had to sign a paper stating that I allow them to keep a file on me. This is not an NDA, but one is let to one's honor. I've used the ATM there. I've seen enough to confirm aspects of Bamford's second book. There are aspects which are best left undiscussed.

The future will be interesting.

Oh yes. They showed you "blast doors." Bombes not visible from outside doors. Know that junction well. Went thru it 4 times and once missed it and went to Milton Keynes.

Ours is modestly heavy. I do not bring our wooden case. I will weighs ours the next time I get the chance.

I went first on a weekend which was closed, but the watchman allowed me to accompany him and we rode on an APC at the end. The Mil. veh. people were out and about. Came back the next weekend and spoke to the people who run the place except Chris. But I have exchanged with her over one of their ex-founders and the Fort.

I muled stuff for 2 gift stories in the US behind fences. I leave it to those people to communicate and exchange exchange stuff (that is a deliberate double). They have a fine gift store.

The major concern is that while it is nice to bring grandma back who worked there and didn't exactly know what she was doing and had to keep shut, they need to attract youth. This is a tough problem. It's not like England has a group like the Cypherpunks or other amateur cryptographers and cryptanalysts. The problem is long term and they have huge budgetary requirements.

Ah! We need to throw some data at it. I have samples.

Cypherpunks? I would assume then that you are aware of Tim May?

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -- Ben Franklin

The "Roosevelt knew it" school was given a lot of discussion in _At Dawn We Slept_, by, er, Gordon Prange. For a historian with no obvious ax to grind, he managed to devastate the arguement. The book is packed away, but the key points:

Japanese security was tight to the point where no radio traffic about the raid occurred. (unlike Midway, where the Japanese Navy got really sloppy) Diplomatic messages said something was going to happen, but not where. There *was* a war warning, but both Kimmel and Short (Naval CincPac and the General of the Hawaii garrison) took measures to protect against sapatoge, not air attack.

FWIW, Kimmel was at the forefront of the Roosevelt school--apparently in an effort to save his sorry tail.

Pete Brooks

--Yes, but I'll let Eugene complete the sentence...

I was of the opinion that Kramer and his people at OP20G(Z) had the decode of Circular 2353 (November 19), the telephone conversation Kurusu/Yamamoto (November 27), and the the decode of Circular 2445 (December 2), all pointing to Pearl Harbor, delivered to Roosevelt and Hull. (From Kahn, The Codebreakers). I've heard of the Prange book but have not read it.

Regards,

Marv

pete brooks wrote:

Yes I have been invited to meetings. And Ed, Tim, and I also get invited to another similar annual conference. And various Erics (Hughes, Raymond, etc. etc.).

I believe that the "purple analog" was used to decode Japanese diplomatic messages, not the Japanese naval 25.

It was still "hit or miss" in early 1942. But, JN25 was being decrypted enough to give us the advantage at the Battle of Midway, in June of that year.

Leo (pearland, tx)

Then there is the school of thought (as far as I know, undocumented) that Roosevelt and his advisors knew of the impending Japanese raid on Pearl Harbor and just let it happen to protect the JN25 "Purple" decode much in the same manner as Churchill knew that Coventry was going to be hit and did nothing about it.

Regards,

Marv I remember about eight years ago there was a BBC show about Pearl Harbor and the events leading up to it that ran on the History Channel. The conclusion was that Roosevelt, Marshall, J. Edgar Hoover, and some others knew in advance about it. Apparently Naval Intelligence in Honolulu was under orders to report to the White House and bypass Kimmel and Short. The White House would then tell Kimmel only what it wanted to hear.-Jitney

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:22:39 -0700, "Ken Davey" wrote something ......and in reply I say!:

Sorry. The guy is tainted. He made his bed with the Nazi thing. Now any "history" by him has to be questionable and I would not want to either trust or read it.

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On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:08:00 -0700, "Ken Davey" wrote something ......and in reply I say!:

It's not the anti-semitism. It's the loud denial of something that is so bloody obvious, recent and well-documented.

_If_ I read anything by someone who had claimed what Irving claims, in order to accept or reject anything the guy said, I wouod have to do a lot of extra reading. Again it's not good vs evil, but sheer plausibility.

No matter how well something _seems_ to be researched, or how many documents are used, it is easy, especially for someone like this, so simply present what suits and ignore what does not.

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On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:52:18 GMT, Charles Morrill wrote something ......and in reply I say!:

Like I said elsewhere, failure fromn the jaws of triumph....

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Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email !!