Continuous still

"azotic" on Fri, 24 Aug 2012 06:24:46 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Yes. You can make beer and wine, but not distilled spirits. Another weird law.

And yes, fuel is "expensive" - you are basically boiling a lot of water in order to get the ethanol to evaporate out of it.

pyotr filipivich fired this volley in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

The primary "rough" content in a first-pass distillation from ordinary grain mashes is furfurals. They taste bad, are moderately toxic, and cause one banger of a hangover, even in tiny concentrations. There are also some undesirable acetates and oils present in the first pass.

There is not normally any significant methanol content unless the "still" is hot enough to destructively distill... not likely if there's still any water left in the mash.

LLoyd

That end of things at least could be improved by either using a concentrating solar collector to provide the heat or a co-gen type setup heating the cabin in the winter or whatever.

Roger, just another idea for you. I've often thought using vacuum would be the way to go for small scale fuel production. You'd need a serious tank that wouldn't colapse, using an old refrigeration compressor would pull off the alcohol at room or very slightly elevated temperature.

it would work to have pretty small batches for this step and leave it run all the time.

Just an idea, worth what you paid for it.

Karl

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" on Fri, 24 Aug

2012 18:12:12 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Hmm, things to remember, which wasn't covered in diddly squat class.*

tschus pyotr

*cf a conversation where I was chastised for making her feel like she didn't know diddly squat. And then a moment or two later I said "Okay, this is something I learned in diddly squat class."

"Pete C." on Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:23:44 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Yep.

Or use the heat from the still to heat the house.

Geothermal solar powered still? .... not so sure.

pyotr

I wondered the same thing, seems most of the moonshine distilling info I read tells people to throw the first bit of the batch out, they said it would have the methanol (maybe if there was any, just to be on the safe side?). I thought maybe if you made mash with grains and they got burnt or something it might make a trace of methanol, but I'm not sure where it could come from in a sugar/water mix. From what I have read, it seems like the other nasties left by the yeast need to be filtered by putting activated charcoal in a tube and filtering the alcohol through it. I'm not sure how that works with moonshine though, where some flavor comes from the grain mash.

RogerN

I think that most of the amateur booze makers are using reflux stills and turning out nearly pure alcohol. Then they cut it back with distilled water and flavor it. Most of the shops selling supplies seem to stock the flavors so I assume that is the preferred method, rather then using a pot still and retaining the flavor from the mash as the scotch whiskey makers do.

The yeast generate the methanol all by themselves. Likewise the fusel alcohols.

Throwing the first and last thirds away, and keeping the middle third, is the secret of distillation discovered by the alchemists.

The first third is the methyl alcohol.

The middle third is the ethyl alcohol.

The last third contains the fusel alcohols.

Joe Gwinn

A federal license is required, and the resulting alcohol must be denatured. Sadly, it is very difficult to achieve pure alcohol---never by distilling alone.

Harold

Related info:

RogerN

More electric heat required. When you approach 1:1 efficiency in converting electricity into ethanol you might as well buy an electric vehicle.

jsw

>>

It may be more cost effective in the short run...but how much will that battery pack cost you to replace? How much will an engine cost to replace? A significant difference.

One can pick up a Ranger engine 3.0 for example..with less than 100k on the clock for $600

What will the costs per 100k miles be for battery replacement?

One might buy a single round of ammunition for $0.15. A big ball bearing for the sling shot, for .10. Which one is cheaper?

Dont forget the basic price of the delivery system..sling shot vrs gun, how much the gun is going to cost you per 500 rds wear and tear/maintainence versus the slingshots cost per 500 rds. Remember..those rubber bands get replaced pretty often...etc etc

The slingshot may be the more expensive item over time.

The sticker price is not always indicative of the total cost of owning/using something. Which is why owning a washing machine costs far more today then it did 25 yrs ago, even with the prices adjusted for inflation. They are built like crap and need far more repair than did the old ones.

Which is why Harbor Freight is so popular. The tools may not be SnapOn..but initial cost of ownership is far far cheaper, and if they break, you simply go to the store and exhange it this afternoon. Lots of SnapOn trucks in your AO? On Sunday?

Yes..SnapOn may be "better"...but that is based on a lot of things not usually considered by a homeowner

Gunner

One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that "violence begets violence." I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure

- and in some cases I have - that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.

- Jeff Cooper

Did you see the link to the form that I posted?

The experimental EV I worked on recharges from a 120V outlet overnight. IIRC the charger was at least 80% efficient.

I understand that getting the last one percent or so of the water, etc., out of the ethanol is a fairly complex process. That alone, might make a home-sized project non-productive.

I like your take on the plc approach, though. I am new to Arduino as a microprocessor, and I can see that a lot of folks use them for automating beer production.

Pete Stanaitis

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I doubt that the alcohol has to have the last 1% water out since they use alcohol to remove water from gas tanks (Heet). From what I've read, size 3A zeolite molecular sieve will absorb water but not alcohol. And you can dry and reuse the zeolite.

I have 3 Arduino boards, they would be a good controller for such a project. The handy thing about the PLC is I have modules for I/O for discrete and analog + temperature sensing & load cells, also have a couple of touch screen HMI panels. After finding out what works for controls on the PLC, it would be nice to convert to an Arduino, my industrial PLC's are rather bulky, my control cabinet might be bigger than the still.

RogerN

Roger, it is a great project, keep us posted.

A lot of stuff in one, thermodynamics, electrics, control, chemistry etc.

I had a moonshine still a long time ago when I was 15 or 16, maybe I should make another.

i

You were not allowed to make either until the 1978 homebrewing law relaxed Federal prohibition against homebrewing. Prohibition against distilled spirits was not addressed in that law.

Jon

Joseph Gwinn on Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:28:10 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Yeast produces Methanol? Hmm, learn something new everyday.