Flood Coolant on the Lathe

Who uses flood coolant on their manual lathe?
Do you get sprayed when using it? Do you waste a lot of coolant.
I was turning some 304 stainless yesterday on the 1440 and everything was
going fine until it started to get hot. Then it cooked inserts, and fast.
If you run flood do you stop using insert tooling?
Until now I've just used a cutting oil on the lathe when the cut seemed to act like it needed it.
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On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 11:01:21 AM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:

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What kind of inserts did you "cook," Bob? It's AWFULLY hard to "cook" a car bide insert at normal cutting speeds. Were you using HSS inserts?
I have an old South Bend 10L, and I use HSS cutters -- carbide, from time t o time, but mostly for abrasive materials (fiberglass, some [hypereutectic] aluminum, and, once in a while, cast iron. I use cutting oil. I've never h ad an overheating problem with carbide. Coolant really doesn't enter into t he equation for most hobby-level machining.
--
Ed Huntress


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wrote in message
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 11:01:21 AM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:

What kind of inserts did you "cook," Bob? It's AWFULLY hard to "cook" a carbide insert at normal cutting speeds. Were you using HSS inserts?
******** I have a heavy hobby machine. Its a PM1440. Weighs in at about 2000lbs with a 3HP spindle motor. Interestingly I was able to machine 4140QT TGP at the same DOC and feeds with little issue with the same inserts. I'm in the process of "hogging" off materials as fast as I can so I am pushing it as hard as I can.
As a side note. I had issues with another modestly difficult material on the mill this year. I was machining 4140HT and kept killing cutters. I went to an AlTiN coated mill and it got better, but tool life was pretty short. Short enough it was affecting the profitability of the job. I tried flood coolant against all common wisdom, and I was able to increase tool life. It did not shatter from thermal shock as so many said it would. I also tried some uncoated mills and they did die almost instantly.
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On 25/11/2018 19:16, Bob La Londe wrote:







One benefit of coolant is that it can help maintain the workpiece temperature near constant so it doesn't expand. I use it sometimes for that reason when machining thing like titanium and 310 stainless, otherwise I rough it down to near final size and leave it to cool for an hour of 2 before taking final cuts. Coolant can be messy sometimes if it gets flung off the chuck but I have splash shields I can fit if it's a real issue.
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On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 2:16:30 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:

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When you get into coated cutters, especially like your AlTiN (Alox-TiN?) mu lti-coated ones, things can get very weird. Assuming it *is* Alox on top, t he more sophisticated ones generally are made for high-speed use (up to 3,0 00 sfm or more), and they have to run dry, or their life is short. It's the vaporizing Alox that actually serves as the lubricant.
Most multi-coated inserts are made for a specific application, or a narrow range of applications. When you use them other than as intended, it's hard to predict what will happen. That's not to say they won't work well in othe r applications, but you have to work out the details for yourself.
So anecdotal information about coolants is going to be a little iffy. Good luck -- whatever works for you.
--
Ed Huntress

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On 11/25/2018 1:37 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: > On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 2:16:30 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >> wrote in message >> >> >> On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 11:01:21 AM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >>> Who uses flood coolant on their manual lathe? >>> >>> Do you get sprayed when using it? Do you waste a lot of coolant. >>> >>> I was turning some 304 stainless yesterday on the 1440 and everything was >>> going fine until it started to get hot. Then it cooked inserts, and fast. >>> >>> If you run flood do you stop using insert tooling? >>> >>> Until now I've just used a cutting oil on the lathe when the cut seemed to >>> act like it needed it. >> >> What kind of inserts did you "cook," Bob? It's AWFULLY hard to "cook" a >> carbide insert at normal cutting speeds. Were you using HSS inserts? >> >> >> ******** I have a heavy hobby machine. Its a PM1440. Weighs in at about >> 2000lbs with a 3HP spindle motor. Interestingly I was able to machine >> 4140QT TGP at the same DOC and feeds with little issue with the same >> inserts. I'm in the process of "hogging" off materials as fast as I can so >> I am pushing it as hard as I can. >> >> As a side note. I had issues with another modestly difficult material on >> the mill this year. I was machining 4140HT and kept killing cutters. I >> went to an AlTiN coated mill and it got better, but tool life was pretty >> short. Short enough it was affecting the profitability of the job. I tried >> flood coolant against all common wisdom, and I was able to increase tool >> life. It did not shatter from thermal shock as so many said it would. I >> also tried some uncoated mills and they did die almost instantly. > > When you get into coated cutters, especially like your AlTiN (Alox-TiN?) multi-coated ones, things can get very weird. Assuming it *is* Alox on top, the more sophisticated ones generally are made for high-speed use (up to 3,000 sfm or more), and they have to run dry, or their life is short. It's the vaporizing Alox that actually serves as the lubricant. > > Most multi-coated inserts are made for a specific application, or a narrow range of applications. When you use them other than as intended, it's hard to predict what will happen. That's not to say they won't work well in other applications, but you have to work out the details for yourself. > > So anecdotal information about coolants is going to be a little iffy. Good luck -- whatever works for you. >
It was one of those things I tried in desperation. It seemed to work at 3600 RPM with a 1/2" 6 flute on the Hurco and 1/4" 4 flutes SE and 1/32 2 flute balls noses on the Speedmasters at 16000 to 24000 RPM.
I thought AlTiN was Aluminum Titanium Nitride. I know if I try to use it on aluminum it chip welds pretty quickly.
Yes, I try things. Sometimes dumb things. I remember when I was trying to learn about high speed milling aluminum and somebody said basically what you said. Well in a more complimentary manner. They said, I might just be THE expert in what I was trying to do. I took that to heart and just started trying things.
Anyway sometimes dumb things work.
I don't know what I did differently today, but I was able to use basically all the same tools (well I had to make a trepanning tool) and finished all the roughing operations on two of the stainless parts I was making. I didn't burn up a single insert. Except for increasing RPM on smaller diameters a little more aggressively I didn't do anything majorly different.
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On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 7:25:54 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:

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It keeps it all interesting. <g> I think I've been away from this for too l ong. I see that "AlTiN" is the designation, and then a discussion of "forme d" AlOx follows, suggesting that the coating is aluminum, which then oxidiz es in use. That is NOT the way it was described when I was trying to sort o ut manufacturers' claims for multi-coated inserts. The AlOx was applied as a ceramic coating. They do say it's primarily for dry machining, but...
Sheesh. Anyway, there is just one more tidbit of info that may be useful. I f you're having sticking problems, consider one of the multi-coated inserts with a soft coating. There were several, including a moly disulfide coatin g and something else that I don't remember. The purpose of the soft coating was to help "break in" the hard coating underneath (TiC, TiN, or TiC-N, us ually), polishing off the rough spots, which left a much smoother surface, less inclined to stick.
But this is getting to be old info, so maybe it's time to talk to an insert manufacturer. They're usually good at helping with application info.
--
Ed Huntress


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wrote in message

It keeps it all interesting. <g> I think I've been away from this for too long. I see that "AlTiN" is the designation, and then a discussion of "formed" AlOx follows, suggesting that the coating is aluminum, which then oxidizes in use. That is NOT the way it was described when I was trying to sort out manufacturers' claims for multi-coated inserts. The AlOx was applied as a ceramic coating. They do say it's primarily for dry machining, but...
Sheesh. Anyway, there is just one more tidbit of info that may be useful. If you're having sticking problems, consider one of the multi-coated inserts with a soft coating. There were several, including a moly disulfide coating and something else that I don't remember. The purpose of the soft coating was to help "break in" the hard coating underneath (TiC, TiN, or TiC-N, usually), polishing off the rough spots, which left a much smoother surface, less inclined to stick.
But this is getting to be old info, so maybe it's time to talk to an insert manufacturer. They're usually good at helping with application info.
**** First off I put down the wrong RPM on the Hurco. I never milled 4140HT that fast with it. Brain Fart. I did run that fast with the Speedmasters, but light high feed cuts. Or light low feed cuts with the really small mills.
No on aluminum I don't have issues with sticking. For the most part I use uncoated high helix mills and a double blast of flood coolant. I was just commenting that when I tried the AlTiN coated they had issues.
Its funny. Everybody talked about ZrN coating for aluminum for a while, but I never was able to justify it for the results I got. I found I got the best material removal rate and the best finishes with uncoated fast helix and a blast of flood coolant. Maybe tool life is better with ZrN, but I'm afraid I tried them when I was still learning and few tools survived bad feeds and speeds. LOL.
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I used coolant and it was mostly OK, you place some lexan screens strategically and it is tolerable.,
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On Nov 25, 2018, Bob La Londe wrote

I do run flood coolant (Rustlick WS-5050 soluble oil) on my lathe (Clausing 5914) for many things. The coolant drains into the chip pan and is recirculated, so it isn?t wasted. Actually, evaporation of the water in the coolant is the bigger issue. And the coolant active ingredients seem to degrade over time, but this is slow.
WS-5050 as diluted is mostly water, and things do not get that hot unless one is pushing or the coolant flow is too little; if pushing, the temperature is limited by the coolant boiling on the tooling and workpiece.
I have fitted shields and rubber skirts to contain the spray, and for safety (the spinning chuck is hard to see andblundering into it will hurt a lot).
I do use carbide and/or insert tooling without difficulty, but I don?t push it that hard. I don?t think I have any ALOX coatings (mentioned by Ed H). When I have pushed hard (steel chips turning blue in flight), I was using uncoated cemented carbide tooling. Joe Gwinn
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wrote:

Greetings Bob, I don't use flood coolant on the manual lathe because it is so messy. But 304 and 316 can be especially hard on inserts so I can see why you would want to. 304 tends to stick to the insert and pull the surface of the insert right off. Certain coatings will also tend to stick to the 304 and be pulled off. In these situatuions some sort of barrier is needed. Coolant can work as can Minimum Quantity Lubrication(MQL). Different coating can work as well. One of the jobs I do in my shop is cutting an o-ring groove in the angled surface of 1/4-20 flat head screws. The material is 316SS. I was getting poor insert life and so changed to another. The change was even worse. Like 10 mor 12 parts before the insert would break. The 316 was welding to the insert. I switched to using MQL and switched insert grades again. Using coolant with the new grade was getting me about 600 parts per edge on the grooving insert. Switching to MQL, specifically some stuff made by UNIST called 2210EP, increased tool life to over 1200 parts per edge. I think I would have gotten 200 parts but I goofed with an offset cahnge and the insert cut the hardened 5C collet that was being used to hold the screw. This broke down one corner of the insert. You can even use a modified spray mister so that it just delivers a small amount of oil without making a mist when cutting 304. A high suflur cutting oil will work well. Stinky, but effective. Eric
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"Gunner Asch" wrote in message wrote:

Bob..there are other methods besides "flood coolant".
Spray mist is a good method if properly implemented, as is "trickle coolant"
Flood coolant has its place..in a fully enclosed machine.
Gunner
***************
This lathe came with a coolant system (which I have not used) pre-installed.
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