Garage/shop wiring update

I'll make a general comment on image 55. As you run romex cable, you have to unwind it so that there are no twists. If you're pulling it out of the middle of the box, you have to whip it around to take the turns out. The other way is to pull it off the outside of the coil with the coil turning. Then you staple it tight and pull it straight and use the next staple to keep it straight and aligned with the edge of the stud or joist. There should be no twists between staples.

There's and easier way to keep it straight. Take it out of the box. Pul thrre turns off holding in your left hand off the left side. Switch, take three turns off in your right hand off the right side and so on. The turns cancel and its straight.

Karl

Get rid of the twists, I do not like the jumps from truss to truss one bit, even if they would pass code, which I doubt, unless you close the ceiling, they are begging to have stuff hung on them or snagged on them. Run it neat and clean, no diagonals, radius the corners neatly, and dress the stuff out like a pro.

Oh yeah, double your fire policy, and your liability one too.

stryped wrote in news:865b7e7c-d29b-4eae-ac8c- snipped-for-privacy@e12g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:

First - Get your grounds off the neutral bus! They go on the other strip directly bolted to the metal housing of the panel.

Cable jacket shouldn't enter the box more than about 1/4"

A pro would leave 8-10" of cable outside the box and staple it, work his way to the next box and then when all the cable pulling and stapling was done switch tool pouches and go back around and strip 6" off the jackets. Then they get shoved into the box until the jacket is just past the clamp, any little extra slack is left outside the box. The splicing would also be done at this point. Way easier than trying to get a knife into the back of the box to strip the jacket cleanly.

Codes vary from area to area but around here if the headroom above the bottom truss chord exceeds 3' then you can't run over the tops of the truss like you have. And since you can't drill an engineered truss wires would be stapled to the sides of the truss where they go parallel. Where they have to go perpendicular then they first go out towards the eave until headroom is below 3' before they jump on top or they can be on top of a continous running board. Conviently the roof framers give a nice running board in the form of the strapping that stabilizes and spaces the bottom truss chords. The idea is you won't subject the cables to damage from crawling around and piling stuff for storage that way.

I wouldn't put staples as close as you have to some of your boxes, 6-

12" is good. Holes for cables run through studs are usually at a consistent height about 12" away from the box. That gives you room to put a staple where it goes up to a box.

I dont know that you ned to worry about the truss plates that much. Running across the face of them shouldn't require any special treatment. Just stay away from the edges.

A board or two nailed between the studs above the panel will give you a place to staple and provide room so your cables aren't excessively bundled.

Looks good to me man, drive on. Are you going to sheet rock and insulate this building?

And don't send that screw in to bond the neutral bus to the box, that's not for subpanels. All the wires should be straight as they exit breakers and busses and then radius.

We used to drill about hip height for runs through studs. It's a convenient place to hold the drill and also to pull the cable. Some guys like to use a long nail-eater auger bit and angle the drill, I prefer a short bit on a right angle drill, it's a little slower but the holes are all straight which makes pulling a little easier.

I am going to insulate it. I am toyign with the idea of using 7/16 osb for the walls and ceiling.

Also, my neutals are in the neutral bus bar and my grounds are in the grounding buss bar. The picture may be deceptive because the panel is upside down. (Read my previous postings). My panel said to mount it upside down if it was going to be bottom fed.

Does it not look neat the way I did it?

I plan on runnign 2x4's between the studs where the wires run across. And I plan on finishign the ceiling in osb.

Are you saying my wiring looks unsafe?

Using the neutral bus for the ground wires would NEVER pass and is unsafe. My inspector would say something about the neatness in the box. He would also say something about the twists and wires crossing on top of other wires. I'm not sure if he wouldn't approve it, just that he would say something.

I did not use the neutral bus bar for grounds. As I said, my box is upside down because the instructions told me to do it that way if it was beign bottom fed. My ground bus is on the left, my neutral is on the right.

Not sure what you mean by "wres crossing on top of other wires". I tried to use cable stackers where I could.

I wanted it to look neat but am having trouble figuring out how to run everything. What can i do to make the box appear "neater"?

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To me -- it looks as though you are ignoring the real ground buss bar, and using a second neutral buss bar intended for the neutrals of cables connected to the breakers on the left as you have it mounted.

The grounding buss bar is to the left of the one you are using, mounted directly on the metal of the box. The neutral buss bars are mounted insulated from the metal of the box.

Good Luck, DoN.

564

You have 2 neutral bus bars. It doesn't matter if your box is upside down or sideways.You are using one for your ground. You need to use the one that is all the way to the left looking at your picture. The ground bus is the one that is connected directly to the box with no insulating material between the bus and the box.

Yes, that's true, but you know what? It doesn't matter. He has it connected properly: the green bonding screw is in place on the bar on the left (bonding that bar to the case and making it effectively a grounding bar), and there is

*no* bonding jumper between that bar and the bar on the right, where he has the neutrals connected.

It may be a bit odd... but it's electrically correct.

Stryped, don't be surprised if the electrical inspector makes you move all those grounding wires from the bar where you have them, to the uninsulated bar on the far left. That's where they're really supposed to be, but the way you have it wired now *is* Code-compliant.

If you move them, be sure you *also* remove the green bonding screw from the bar where you have them connected now. That screw connects that bar to the case, and is what enables you to use that bar as a grounding bar -- and, conversely, prohibits it from being used as a neutral bar. Someone may later see what is apparently an unused neutral bar, not notice the bonding screw, and connect a neutral wire to that bar -- creating a shock hazard.

Thanks for all of the advice. That is why I post on here. You guys came up with that when no on ein the electrical enginnering forum did.

I will move the wires but I did verify with a continuity meter that the left bank has continuity to the enclsure. It even says "ground strap" on it. The left bank says "neutral strap" and doe not have continuity to the cabinet.

Someone said I need to remove the screw to isolate where I have the grounds now to the cabinet. Will the inspector be ok with this?

Also, I plan on using 10-3 wire and installing a 30 amp recepticle for a futre air compressor. Also a 50 amp wire for my lincoln buzz box. Is it ok to put both those double pole breakers on the same side of the panel as my 100 amp main? Or will that be some type of "imbalance"?

I also plan on putting those two outlets near my overhead garage door so I can get my welder and things outside if I need to weld on somethign there. Is there a certain distance it needs to be away from he door? To be hones, I will probably leave the breaks for these two off most of the time until I need to use them.

So -- as long as the green bonding screw (I did not notice that in the photos) is in place -- it can be used as a grounding buss, but allows for someone making a mistake sometime later -- whether it is grounded or not, depending on what they *expect* to see. (You know how what you see can differ from what is really there when you have strong expectations? :-)

Now -- IIRC, you are feeding this from a breaker box in the main house, rather than through a different meter entrance from the power company's pole or subterranean feed. Under those circumstances, neutral and ground must *not* be bonded together (only can be so at the main box where the service comes in from the meter). So I would consider it safer to pull the green bonding screw, which will float the bus above ground, connect all grounds to the separate strip which is mounted directly on the metal of the box, and use those inner buss strips as neutral busses only. That way, they are convenient to the breakers on that side of the box, and you only have to route the ground wires the long way around to the real ground buss.

He probably will -- if those are used as neutrals only. He won't be happy with the screw removed if you are using it for grounds (as you are now), or the screw present with it used as neutrals, since this is not a *primary* service entrance.

More questions.

1) Are you feeding 240 VAC to the box from your main service entrance? If so, then every other blade in the box is from one of the two feeds, and the ones between them are from the other.

Your feed will be through an appropriately rated 240 VAC breaker so you are feeding both internal busses no matter which side the feed breaker is on.

2) Are your air compressor and buzz box 120 VAC or 240 VAC devices? If they are 240 VAC devices, using dual breakers, then no matter where in the box you put them, they will be drawing half from each buss.

If the devices are both 120 VAC devices, then if you put two breakers adjacent to each other, they will be drawing from two different busses, so no problem.

However -- if both are 120 VAC devices, and you have a gap between the two breakers, then both will be loading only one side of the buss, so you could get enough of an imbalance so they could pop the main breaker just from the total current on one side.

I have no idea on this one. If they are close to garage doors which may be open during a rainstorm, I would suggest that you put outdoor outlets in place (the ones with a spring-loaded cap to keep water out of the outlet during strong rain.

And code *might* want you to put GFIs on those outlets in any case, which might be a problem with the compressor, and which I'll bet would trip from leakages in the buzz-box.

What I might consider doing for those outlets is to mount them in the ceiling beside the garage door, so rain can't get into them. Go for the twist-lock connectors so the weight of the cord won't pull it out of the outlet.

Note that I am not a licensed electrician. I've done lots of electronics work, but that is different, since it does not have the massive amount of regulation that power wiring has for safety reasons.

Good Luck, DoN.

Read what I wrote above. Read my other post in this thread. The "Cliffs Notes" version: if you leave the wires where they are now, you *MUST* leave the screw in place too; if you move the wires to the small completely uninsulated bar, you *should* remove the screw. Reasons explained above.

It doesn't matter which side of the panel you put a double-pole breaker on. It's connected to both hot legs anyway.

No.

Why? Breakers are not meant to be used as switches. Leave them on all the time. (They're not faucets, either -- they don't leak if left on.)