Technically, you're right, but consider the next guy to come along to add a circuit in that box. Either he knows the Code and good practice, or he's a typical homeowner who knows just enough to be dangerous.
In the first case, he's going to see what appears to be a neutral bar, with a lot of bare wires in it -- and realize that something's out of the ordinary, investigate, and see that it's set up correctly, if a little strangely.
In the second case, he's going to see one bar on the left with a bunch of bare wires in it, and another bar on the right with a bunch of white wires in it, and figure bare wires go on the left, white wires on the right.
What scared me was when I replaced a light switch in my BiL's mobile in Florida and found a type of wiring more suited to low grade signal wiring; no box as such, just a plastic cover over the back of the switch which was held in place in the hole in the paneling by bend down metal tabs, with the wires punched down in slots like telephone wiring. It did specify no more than two wires per slot. Imagine something like this combined with Aluminium wiring! Gerry :-)} London, Canada
stryped wrote in news:89d610e5-8cc7-4b6b-b6e2- snipped-for-privacy@e12g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
That's some F'd up panel design. Why make a panel with a insulated bus on one side and make it suitable for grounds with a bonding screw then stick a ground only strip beside it. Pull the screw out and what happens, it floats? Hey it's isolated ground ready. Sometime I actually wish for that, but not something that should be available at the average home center.
So if you were to enter a cable on that side and you for some reason chose to have that mystery buss bonded to ground instead of jumped to neutral you have to wrap the 'neutral' wires all the way around to the other side of the panel to hit the neutral bar?
Every major brand in current production I have seen has a neutral bus on each side. Who makes this thing anyway? I can't quite make out the name on the breakers.
They say the CEC code is being harmonized with the NEC, hope crap like that doesn't start showing up around here.
So that a 240v breaker will get A & B no matter where it's placed; and opposite 120v breakers [across a row] & adjacent ones will be on different phases.
-Are plastic boxes ok and allowed ot use in a detatched building if the
-walls are left open?
If the walls are open, you should use at least a plastic box made to attach to PCV conduit, and run the wire in PVC conduit. All exposed electrical wiring should be in conduit.
With local code questions like this, it's best to call your local inspection office. They'll probably be able to answer questions over the phone. As long as you plan to *get* an inspection, there's no down side to calling and asking questions. The inspectors don't ask for your name and address, or anything like that. It's to their (the community's) advantage to give straightforward answers to anyone who calls.
Regarding insurance and such, you might ask your insurance company if there is any clause that would void your policy if the work is done by an unbonded, unlicensed installer (you). If you don't ask about this, you're not gaining anything. Just like car insurance, no one cares who did the work until a claim is filed. *Then* the questions start, fast n' furious. Best to know now what your insurance is OK with. At worst, you can get a licensed electrician to look over your work and sign off on it, for a fee.
My question would be:- Are you proposing to insulate between the studs? If so, is the cable size correctly calculated for being inside insulation instead of free-air or clipped-to-surface?
The difference in current carrying capacity for the two situations can be
1 breaker A A breaker 2 3 breaker B B breaker 4 5 breaker A A breaker 6 7 breaker B B breaker 8 9 breaker A A breaker 10
11 breaker B B breaker 12
Some call for trhe numbering to go the other way, but the busses are usually that way.
Now here's where it gets wierd - this only counts for 1" wide "full size" breakers. When you get into the 'splits' (GE Thin) and Tandems and Quads, you can have two breakers next to each other on the Same Phase. So you have to stop and think.
Rule: You have to READ and Understand the Label on the panel. They've done many odd things through the years.
There are a few wierd ones - like the Square D 6-breaker that is horizontal, and only has one 240V space in the middle where you get A abd B phase under one breaker...
breaker A breaker A breaker A } 240V Breaker breaker B } here only breaker B breaker B
You can not mix grounds and neutrals anywhere else than the main disconnect point of the house, usually an "all-in-one" service panel - meter, main and distribution breakers all in one can.
If you have a Meter Main outside, and a seperate Main Panel inside, even there you have to keep the safety ground and neutral bars electrically seperate. Same thing with any sub-panels downstream of the main service.
The whole reason being, if the Neutral wire goes open you want to know about it. If they are tied at the panels, the Ground will carry the Neutral loads till it fails too...
Meanwhile, someone can easily get fried because the safety ground has been pulled hot by all the Neutral load voltages it is carrying. The safety ground is ONLY supposed to see current in case of a fault.
Yes - but only if you are using solvent-welded plastic conduit between the boxes. And that's a pain in the butt to work with - the only time you do that is on a boathouse or other Wet Location. Or you are putting the plastic conduit inside a block or brick wall. Poured concrete floor slab, etc. Romex can NOT be left in an exposed garage or outbuilding wall that is not finished, it is not protected from damage.
Plastic boxes are rarely used for Flex conduit or BX/MC cable in an exposed wall situation like that, you use steel 4S boxes and either raised surface covers (Raco 902 or eq.) or mud rings and regular plates. And the prices are about the same.
I've reworked a wood framed house in exposed plastic conduit like that, but this house was the exception to the rule - built up on pilings 10' over the mean high-tide line of the beach in Malibu. When they got Plus Tides on full moons, the bottom of the house got splashed with salt water from hitting the concrete septic tank partially buried in the sand. I doubt you have to deal with that...
Flat roof and exposed wood and beam ceilings, so all the circuits extending from the main panel over to the various bedrooms and kitchen circuits went under the floor. Originally done in EMT "because it's legal..." (but not very smart) when we got there it was exposed wires and a few rust flakes... Had to redo all the Home Runs.
* ** * *
Oh, and you mentioned elsewhere using OSB for the ceiling or walls of your new shop area - DONT. Drywall is fire resistant when properly primed and painted, OSB most assuredly isn't.
You'll be welding at 8 PM and quit to go to bed, a spark will fly into a corner and smolder for hours, and at 2 AM you wake up to find the garage fully involved. Obviously, this is a problem...
Yes, you should. Even if he can get away with doing it that way doesn't make it 'right' or proper workmanship.
Because you and I grew up in urban areas with fairly stringent (but equitable) building codes, and good enforcement, so you know Right and Wrong when you see it.
For a ranch or a cabin in a rural area where the Rancher or Farm Hands do all the wiring, they only worry about expediency and nobody ever checks up on them, you'll see some really odd shit...
But Pure Stupidity tends to be self-correcting, especially if they are a half-hour drive (or more) away from the closest fire station, and they have to deal with the results of their own errors...
If you hang your shingle as an Electrician (or a General who does his own Specialty work rather than sub it out), you have to really know what you are doing...
How the Codes work and WHY they are written the way they are - Deconstruction is important. Because when you need to do something that isn't explicitly covered by the existing Code rules, you can mix and match different practices and materials from the existing sections to make the end product safe.
(But you have to be able to defend your decisions and methods. Not difficult if you understand what you did, and it isn't just working by rote - "Go to the Freezer, Get the Box.")
There's already a big derate built into the Code for that on branch circuit uses. If you look it up on the load charts, technically #12 THHN is good for 30 to 35 amps or so (not going to look it up now) - but by Code you can only feed it at 20A.
Same thing with #14 and #10.
You do have to worry about it for larger circuits, but that is the time you are mathing it all out anyway.
Stryped: Get someone local to come in and critique your work - get a building permit and the local inspector will be glad to do it for you.
If you don't want the hassles, get a local electrician and a case of good beer to entice him over.
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