Gluing brass



I checked some old notes and I'm a little light on that dimension. Optimum strength with good epoxies is achieved with a bond thickness around 0.005". 0.002" is the absolute minimum.
--
Ed Huntress



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I have in the past bought brass, aluminum and stainless steel tape, with adhesive on one side, in rolls - perhaps that will be your solution?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
The process is documented in the videos in the same set if you have the patience for it. Note that I had trouble with epoxy then :-).
--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That's beautiful, Michael.
Since the thin brass doesn't appear to overhang anything, the peel issue shouldn't be too bad.
--
Ed Huntress



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Thank you.
The reason I am going through the trial again is that during one of those processes the whole brass face just popped off. Today I am sad to report another failed trial using the scratch-in technique. There was not even a pretense of adhesion. I am running a few more test pieces with different scrap brass and two different epoxies. I am also running steel-to-steel parallel trial as a control.
After that it is the turn of the solder paste...
--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Jeez. You're snake-bitten on this job. Something is funny here, because, even with vulnerability to peel, no adhesive appropriate for metal should just "pop off," especially after you've given the work some tooth. You may not be getting much chemical adhesion but just the mechanical adhesion, alone, should prevent that from happening.

Now it sounds like an adhesive problem. What adhesive are you using?

Excellent. Tests are good.

Ok, but after looking at the photos, I'm wondering why you're using such thin brass stock. It looks like you're doing it the hard way, but maybe there's something that isn't apparent from the photos.
--
Ed Huntress



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Pop off? My suspicion is that the pieces are not clean enough. It can be surprisingly hard to get *all* the grease et al off of things.
Joe Gwinn

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    [ ... ]

    What about contact cement? Either Pliobond or Weldwood. (It might take it a while to dry properly given the metal film which the vapors have to go out through.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Thank you.
The reason I am going through the trial again is that during one of those processes the whole brass face just popped off. Today I am sad to report another failed trial using the scratch-in technique. There was not even a pretense of adhesion. I am running a few more test pieces with different scrap brass and two different epoxies. I am also running steel-to-steel parallel trial as a control.
After that it is the turn of the solder paste...
--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I continue to scratch my head over this one. Is the popping-off happening when you subject the assembly to a significant change in temperature? The thermal coefficient for brass is around 40% greater than that for steel. Although a 0.006"-thick sheet of brass isn't going to develop a lot of shear force, it could be enough, if heat is an issue.
Otherwise, I suspect your epoxy. I assume you're not using one of the quick-cure types, "5-minute" or "10-minute" stuff, because that's all but useless for making a permanent bond to metal.
A normal amine-cure, hardware-story epoxy adhesive, like Elmer's, ought to do the job. But, again, I think you'd be better off with a laminating adhesive than with epoxy.
--
Ed Huntress



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
[...]

You me and all!
This is getting curiouser and curiouser. Yesterday I thought I would try gluing different brass to the same steel just to see what happens. I found two scraps - one from a candle stick from a garage sale and one from a unidentified plate I had for years. I did two set ups with steel-to-steel controls, one with JB Weld and one with Devcon 2-ton epoxy (I wish this one worked - it is clear and relatively low viscosity, therefore easy to spread over large areas). Today, after 24 hours of curing, I could not separate either of the JB Weld joints by hand. The Devcon joints could both be separated with moderate degree of force. Thus it is not the brass per se but *this* particular brass. It's not like the glue sticks to it in patches, it seems to positively repel any sort of glue.
I thought that if there was some weird coating on it it should show by the way it takes solder. I took a piece and cleaned half of it with 120 grit and left the other half intact. I coated both halves with flux and put a small pallion of solder on each half. Both pallions melted and flowed easily coating the foil flawlessly.
In the end the answer may be simply to use different brass. All things considered I would rather avoid using heat in this particular application and 0.006" foil is a pain to work with anyway. By now however, I am obsessed with finding an answer to this irritating problem.
--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You've really got me on this one, Michael. I can't imagine what's going on, unless there is some kind of coating (possibly a protective coating applied at the mill) that's just not coming off with normal cleaning and abrasion.
FWIW, regular JB Weld is only 30% - 40% epoxy. The rest is filler -- calcium carbonate, a little iron, and some polymer or other. If that's working better for you than the Devcon, then something is doubly strange.
I'm glad to hear you're obsessed about it, however. That means we'll probably learn more from your efforts. d8-)
Good luck. There has to be something unsuspected going on. Brass isn't that hard to glue, once you've gotten under the transparent layer of oxide.
--
Ed Huntress



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    [ ... ]

    What is a pallion? O.K. Apparently a very small square of solder that has been flattened before cutting to squares.

    [ ... ]

    Just a thought. Could it be an aluminum with an anodize layer colored sorta brass?
    But the solder experiment suggests otherwise.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It is not, as I have demonstrated with those other pieces. I suspect that I do not understand the mechanics of peel, however, the peel alone would not explain the failure of the glue to adhere to brass while adhering tenaciously to the steel side of the joint. Does it make a difference if it is the side that is peeling as opposed to the side it is being peeled off of?
Anyway, as this is getting old rather rapidly, two more tries:
1) A slightly thicker (0.015") brass, purchased in the same shop as the 0.006" way back. Same treatment but this time I did not run a steel-to- steel control. Once the peel started the whole joint unravelled with little difficulty with the same appearance, i.e. no glue stuck on the brass side.
2) Most important: I found the piece I started experimenting with originally. Looks like the one on flickr except the brass face is battered through rough handling. a) I found a small part of the periphery that was not completely stuck down. I got a tip of my pliers on it and tried a peel. To my surprise after initial 2 mm or so there was *no* peel! The brass was well and truly stuck to the steel. On the separated part you see bits of glue on both sides of the joint. I am trying to remember what I used at the time and keep coming up with Household Amazing Goop: The stuff is horrible to use, very thick and hard to spread. I understand that it may be of the same family as E6000. b) To investigate the properties of the brass foil without the peel effect coming into play I thought I had a unique opportunity here: The brass (which, BTW is from the same roll as all the other bits I have been experimenting with) was well and truly stuck to the steel and thus rigid. So I made another joint with the JBWeld using the existing piece ending up with a sort of steel sandwich. Lo and behold, after 24 hours I could not separate the joint by hand alone! After doing so with the help of a vise, the joint looked as all the others, i.e. all the failure of adhesion was on the brass side.
Thus one must believe in the magic properties of the Household Amazing Goop. I wish I remembered how long I left the piece to cure at the time. The E6000 after 24 hours was no better than the others. Pity, as it is damn sight easier to use than the Goop.
I have no reason to dispute what you say about the JB Weld, however, having been playing with glues of all kinds for some time I find that on metal it gives the most consistent results. I have not tried to cure the other epoxies for a week as someone suggested. Even if the result improved why bother if JBWeld will do the job quicker (in fact on most surfaces a medium density cyanoacrylate is even quicker and the strength is comparable - I use it when repositioning is not an issue).
As to the possible heat effect, the face popped off while I was cleaning up the rim of the glued up piece in the Taig. I doubt there was a significant heat generation involved.
There are now several compelling reasons for me to use thicker brass for this in future: Less likely to peel, less sensitive to damage etc.
I shall do one more trial: Brass-to-brass using the Goop and E6000. I might let them cure for a couple of days.
--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The JB Weld may work better because there is less epoxy. My understanding is that epoxy destroys the oxide layer and therefore results in no adhesion. So a thicker layer of oxide or less epoxy may work better.
Dan
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
[...]

The clear winner was the Household Amazing Goop. It was not subtle. I wish that stuff was easier to use! I am left pondering what black magic chemistry is involved here...
--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I had the sole of my last pair of desert combat boots come loose at the toe. Gooped it up good, put a brick on it for a couple days and 2 yrs later..Im still wearing it.
Gunner
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Like the laminate adhesives, Household Goop is highly elastomeric. It's a polypropylene/solvent adhesive. Those adhesives aren't especially strong in tension or sheer, unlike epoxies, but they're the most peel-resistant types.
Most likely, it's a peel issue you were dealing with.
--
Ed Huntress



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:13 -0700, "Michael Koblic"

Warm it and the applied pieces before use, Mikey. Latex paint and caulk are the same way. The warmer they are, the easier it is to work with 'em.
I'm really surprised that the Household Goop outperformed the E6000. I have tubes of plumber/household/shoe Goop and E6000, and have almost stopped using all but the E6000. It's a bit thinner and easier to use, and it grips everything I've tried it on, including bookbindings, quite well.
--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 22:00:31 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

Coming in late, but have recently tried the new West System GFlex 655K thickened epoxy with good luck on Aluminum. It might be a good candidate for brass, too. They claim it is "toughened" and has some flexibility to handle stresses. Even can be used to repair aluminum boats and cures underwater.
A call to Gougen Brothers might yield some good ideas. 866-937-8797
Karl Pearson
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.