Homebuilt Machine Guns Legal!!!!

If it uses black powder and loads from the muzzle there are very few restrictions. Anything over a .50 caliber in modern powders is under tighter regulations. To sell a gun made in your own shop would require all kinds of different permits from several agencies probably. The NRA/ILA website probably has links to these laws and regulations. Dennis

Got a link?

Gunner

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

A search of

, using "9th circuit appeals machine gun", returns 5 articles. Here's one:

R, Tom Q.

$file/0210318.pdf?openelement

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

Once again it becomes extremely apparent that we are much more in need of a well regulated ATF than we are of regulating firearms. Just think of all the expenses involved with a case like this just due to some idiot ATF agent.

A buddy and I bought some of our machinery from a fellow (60 years of age) that came into conflict with the ATF because he was rebuilding parts for the mini-guns(these parts were only being sold to the US government). This man had been convicted of a minor felony 40+ years before this. NOTHING this man was in possesion(owner of) of or rebuilding involved any restricted parts due to the fact he was a felon. None the less the ATF took notice of his business and spent 2 years undercover to entice him under the guise of being purchasing agents for the military to demonstrate his rebuilt parts on a functioning mini-gun. This mans brother was and still is a registered machine gun owner and he purchased the rest of a mini-gun offshore and had it (legally) brought into the US. While at a government range testing the mini-gun with their reconditioned parts installed one of the range personel kept urging this man to "go ahead and give it a try". The instant he touched the gun he was arrested by the ATF agents who were posing as the range personel. Two years and millions of dollars in the making of a case that effected no one but this man and our government to which they had already sold over 300,000.00 dollars in parts to already. I don't know the entire outcome of the case other than he was convicted on 6 counts of felony possesion of a firearm by a felon. Each count is worth 10 years in prison. It would sure look to me that with this case they have an excellent case for appeal as due to only the US government being the only buyer of their parts they were in no way affecting interstate commerce by increasing the demand for a controlled item. ...

tim

And lo, it came about, that on 15 Nov 2003 05:15:03 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking , snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Gunluvver2) was inspired to utter:

"Apparently" the Ninth ruled that if you make a machine-gun at home for your _own_ use, _and_ you are not making a gun instead of purchasing one, then you are not in violation of the interstate commerce catch-all clause excuse the Feds use to regulate machin-gun manufacture. Of course "Void where prohibited by law" still applies. Local (state and city) laws may prohibit the manufacture of machine-guns, even if for personal use on private property only.

Like the ruling that convicted felons are exempt from gun-registration schemes (due to Constitutional protection against requiring self-incriminating testimony), this does create "loopholes" and weird precedents. But it isn't called the "Ninth Circus" for no reason.

tschus pyotr

Careful, now. You might wind up saying the *second* good thing you've ever said about the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, after once starting an entire thread fuming over its decisions, which you titled "Gotta love you liberals". It may just turn out that the "liberal" courts are really your best friends, when it comes to defending individual rights against the feds.

Two brownie points if you remember the first...

Ed Huntress

Oddly enough, so does the ATF website.

Chuckle..Ed...given it is the most reversed court in the land..Id have to say that this decision follows under the "even a blind robin gets a worm now and again" category. And yes, I recall the thread.

Gunner

"The Democratic Party is the party of this popular corruption. The heart of the Democratic Party and its activist core is made up of government unions, government dependent professions (teachers, social workers, civil servants); special interest and special benefits groups (abortion rights, is a good example) that feed off the government trough; and ethnic constituencies, African Americans being the most prominent, who are disproportionately invested in government jobs and in programs that government provides.

" The Democratic Party credo is 'Take as much of the people's money as politically feasible, and use that money to buy as many of the people's votes as possible'. Tax cuts are a threat to this Democratic agenda. Consequently, Democrats loathe and despise them." -Semi-reformed Leftist David Horowitz

It follows that if homebuilt machine guns are legal so are homebuilt silencers.

Be careful. A close reading of the ruling shows why the man in question was exempt from application of 922 (o) - oddly, that he was already a felon. This meant that his home manufacture of machineguns did not reduce the demand for machineguns, because "As a convicted felon, Stewart would have been highly unlikely to obtain federal license authorizing him to purchase a machinegun in the heavily regulated market for such commodities." (page 11)

Had he not been a felon already, his manufacture of machineguns would have by the same reasoning *might* have "reduced the demand" for machineguns in interstate commerce and thus fallen into the purview of 922(o). For an example statute, see Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111. This conclusion is not as clear cut as the one above.

As I am not an attorney this should be taken as only my best guess.

Also note that Stewart did *not* get off, as the court affirmed his conviction for felony possession of a firearm.

StaticsJason

ooooooh!...I like the way you think!!

Gunner

"The Democratic Party is the party of this popular corruption. The heart of the Democratic Party and its activist core is made up of government unions, government dependent professions (teachers, social workers, civil servants); special interest and special benefits groups (abortion rights, is a good example) that feed off the government trough; and ethnic constituencies, African Americans being the most prominent, who are disproportionately invested in government jobs and in programs that government provides.

" The Democratic Party credo is 'Take as much of the people's money as politically feasible, and use that money to buy as many of the people's votes as possible'. Tax cuts are a threat to this Democratic agenda. Consequently, Democrats loathe and despise them." -Semi-reformed Leftist David Horowitz

Damn, and to think I was just going to scale up those plans for a .22 Gattling gun to a .50 BMG . Shit, I miss out on all the fun..... Ron Anyone have a mile tract to sight it in?

The gatling gun isn't a machinegun unless it's powered so I'd go for it. Just make sure to hand crank it. Without the silencer of course. Karl

fun.....

Can you cite a reg or link? Your comment got me to thinking (no, it didn't take a week. I've been on vacation).

This may have been hashed before. I'm just curious about the following and how they relate.

Electric motor with lobe to strike trigger on semi-auto.

Mechanism to pull triggers on multiple semi-autos at one time.

Remote trigger via electric solenoid. Which is then the trigger; The one your finger is on or the one the solenoid is pressing? If it is via flex cable rather than electric? Radio controlled?

The standard that used to be applied was no more than one shot without additional user input.

Electric motor, (powered Gatling, chain gun, or trip cam for a semi), is a machine gun.

Manual, (conventional Gatling, Calico or BMF activator), is not a machine gun.

Remote trigger is OK as long as you still have to manually trip it for each shot. (Set it up so the bolt handle of the semi hits the button during the last of it's forward travel and you have a machine gun.)

Keep in mind that the BATF interprets the rules as they go along and that they have NO obligation to decide grey areas in your favor. Best advice I can give is to check with them in advance, and get their opinion in writing. It won't keep them from reversing themselves a week later but will show you made a good faith effort to stay legal.

Later, Joe

It's interesting to see how they bring the interstate commerece thing into the picture to make it a federal case. My wife was recently on jury duty in federal court. The case was a small-time crook who was charged with being a convicted felon in possision of a firearm. They actually charged him with possessing the ammo - the gun was made in the same state, but the ammo was made out of state, so they could call it interstate commerce and charge him under the much stiffer fed laws.

I don't have any sympathy for the guy - he was a bad guy and a moron. He got caught because he nearly hit a police car (he was drinking), while driving on a suspended license, in a car with stolen plates, with a bag of suspicious tools (crowbar, icepick, ski mask, etc) in the back and a gun (and ammo) he isn't allowed to own (three prior felonies) in the front.

John Kasunich

On 26 Nov 2003 10:16:06 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (John Kasunich) wrote something ......and in reply I say!:

He was going bear hunting in the mountains?

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