WTB 5C collet chuck

Hi,
I'm equipping my shop and I was wondering if anyone has an extra 5C collet chuck that would fit my 9" logan - 1 1/2"x8TPI. I can put on a new backing
plate. I've been looking for one and I'm tempted to get the Bison or the Tiawan/Bison knock-off.
Please let me know and thanks,
Dave
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Dave,
I picked up a 5" bison 5C at N.A.M.E.S. last year and I'm quit happy with it. I mounted mine on a smithy 1220XL
Jim Geib Mansfield, Ohio

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    Not I -- my spindle will take the 5C collets in a nosepiece with a through-spindle drawbar, so I've never needed one of these.

    Go for the Bison, not the knock-off. Bison makes really good tools for reasonable prices.

    Good Luck,         DoN.
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Let me broaden the question, as I'm thinking about exactly the same thing as Dave, but I've never used a collet chuck (collets in spindle, yes, chuck no).
I just bought a 9" SB that has a lever collet closer and a bunch of ratty 3C collets. It will eventually replace my 13" SB, because when we move aboard Fintry (www.mvFintry.com) the smaller lathe is a better fit.
My math says I'm better off buying a 5C collet chuck and collets versus 3C collets because 5C are much cheaper. And, of course, I can sell the 3C collet closer on eBay. Finally, the lever collet closer makes the lathe longer and wider (both not big issues, but undesirable) and has limited diameter.
For general, non-precision use, am I going to be happy with a collet chuck or should I stick with the collets in the spindle?
--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com
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Ok, but *where* on the boat is the metalworking shop? Enquiring minds want to know!

First off be sure to have a good four jaw chuck for the machine. This can be configured to hold nearly anything - I take it you basically want to have some maintenence ability on the ship. A 9" machine is a tad small for that but it's obviously better than nothing. If you could find a 10L (sell the 9 and put that money towards a larger machine) then you can put the 5C collets right in the spindle.
The 9" spindle obviously will accept a bison collet chuck add-on but it does take some room along the bed - it sticks out from the spindle about the length of, say, a 5C collet. The room itself on the bed may not be a terribly big issue but this tends to reduce the rigidity of the lathe's spindle, which is designed for smaller work, really.
I don't see too many complaints about this fact from the folks here who use the bison units, however. Just remember that it will give you better, cheaper, workholding. It won't transform your machine into a more powerful lathe.
The 3C lever closer does command a fair bit on ebay IIRC, but if I were you I would be tempted to keep it with the machine because you may find a deal on a bigger lathe, and the 9" will be very tasty if it comes with the lever closer. Of course you may not want any extra ballast on the ship. If the 3Cs are badly worn then part them out in a lot.
If you do purchase the bison then get the best collets you can find, for the same reason, you may want to trade up to a bigger machine and then you keep the 5Cs. Consider new hardinge for the most often used collets, and used ones for the 32s or whatnot.
Jim
================================================= please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================
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Thanks, Jim, for helpful thoughts.
The lathe will go roughly under "ment" in the engine room:
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/erplan800.png
The room is about 20 feet square, but there's a lot of stuff going there, so space is an issue. As you say, it's mostly for maintenance -- it's amazing how often you need a small piece of lathe work.
As I said, I own a 13" SB -- the two are now set up side by side in my shop, so it's easy to compare capability. The big advantage of the 9" over the 13" is that with the same 48" bed length, the 9" is about 10" longer center to center. I have found mostly that length is more of an issue than swing. Does anyone know the c/c on a 10L with 48" bed?
I own several four jaws and will take an appropriate one and put it on a new back for the 9". As you say, that's essential, even if you don't use it often.
--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com
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I like this thread, I have a 9" SB with no collets. I have about 50 pounds of 5c collets and about 200 pounds of #22, #11 and #11c collets to ebay. If i can use the 5c collets on my SB that would be great. I have been looking at the #11 collets and the collet holder thinking I might be able to make it fit my SB, that would give me Round, Hex and square collets of all sizes. But if I could buy a holder/chuck for the 5C collets that would be great. Anyone looking for #22, #11, #11c collets? I have #22 from 1/16 to 1" in 64th steps
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See, for example: http://www.brassandtool.com/Chucks-Collet.html
which is what prompted my question earlier in this thread. Thanks to all for the help.
--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com
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Jim Woodward wrote:

One alternative for non-precision work (>.001)would be the use of the headstock Jacobs chuck that was sold as a SB accessory. This gives the full 3/4" through the headstock and the speed of a three jaw chuck. I use mine all the time.
Kevin Gallimore
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Do I guess correctly that this is a 3/4" Jacobs Chuck that screws on the spindle?
I've never seen one -- have you ever seen one other than yours?
--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com
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Jim Woodward wrote:

They are around- here's one that was on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item%69014357&category 72
I didn't know I had such expensive equipment. They were sold by both SB and Atlas, so there must be plenty in basements somewhere. You might put in a call to the Daves, and Leigh on the west coast (shouldn't cost too much to ship) to see if they have any in stock. You're looking for a Jacobs 58B headstock chuck.
Keep us posted on the progress of that pretty little ship.
Kevin Gallimore
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Thanks. I have the best of intentions of keeping the Web Site up to date, but, so much to do, so little time.
--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com
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Yes. I have Jacobs Headstock Chuck versions for both my Atlas 6" and Logan 8" lathes. They are considerably better than the usual 3-jaw chucks for small work, but nowhere near as accurate as collets. Sort of in-between in accuracy and convenience.
Dan Mitchell ========Jim Woodward wrote:

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Spindle collets SHOULD run more nearly true than any common nose mounted collet chuck. The accuracy of such a collet chuck is limited to the accuracy of the spindle mount. That said, assuming the spindle is in good shape, reasonable accuracy, far in excess of a normal chuck, should be easy to achieve. The key to good performance is to CAREFULLY fit the collet chuck's backplate to the spindle, with minimal 'slop'. For that reason, a collet chuck with a fully machinable backplate (both lathe AND chuck ends) is probably better than a 'universal', which by definition must fit a variety of similar 'noses'.
I have such a 5C Bison chuck on a Logan 10", with a regular backplate machined to fit the Logan's spindle thread and register. I routinely get less than 0.001" runout with no fiddling. A little fiddling and reseating and a half 'thou' or so isn't too difficult.
Another solution is to get an 'adjust true' or similar and dial it in to whatever accuracy you need.
One other thing to keep in mind is that the collet chuck has a LOT more overhang than a spindle collet. You cannot expect the same rigidity for heavy cutting.
Sure is handy though, for fast set-ups that still give a far better centering precision than a three jaw chuck.
Dan Mitchell ========Jim Woodward wrote:

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    Agreed!
    And the Bison 5C collet chuck is available with the "Adjust-Tru" feature. If I were going to get one (not too likely with my spindle taking them almost directly (only an adaptor collar from MT-4-1/2 to 5C), I would certainly get one with the Adjust-Tru feature.

    Agreed -- and the one with the Adjust-Tru feature is a little longer than the one without, I believe.

    I'm spoiled with the through-the-spindle lever actuator (which does have to be removed to clear anything between 1" and the spindle's max of 1-3/8".
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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Dave, Another option to consider is making your own 5C chuck that screws right on your spindle. Andy Lofquist at Metal Lathe Accessories (MLA) has finished the prototype for a 5C chuck kit that he will market very soon. It is intended just for applications like you describe. The usual qualifiers apply; I'm not affiliated, just a satisfied customer. Check http://www.sc-c.com/metallathe/ Even though Andy now has email, he prefers using the phone.
Jim S.

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Hey Folks,
Thanks for the replies. I will keep looking at the Bison's and the Tiawan equivalents (Eagel?). I've had a couple of people tell me that they are happy with the Bisons, however I don't know anyone who purchased the Tiawan chuck. I'll also get hold of the guy at MLA and see what he wants for his kit.
Good luck getting the SB in the ship. I think that the 5C would be a preferable chuck and collet for your application - the 3C is just too limited.
Does anyone have experience with the 5C Tiawan chucks like listed:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item%72966777&category%292
Please let me know.
Thanks again,
Dave

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Good luck getting the SB in the ship. I think that the 5C would be a preferable chuck and collet for your application - the 3C is just too limited.

One cannot be without a 5C chuck.
My collets are 2J, and I have 3J and 22J as well. My 2J, 3J and 22J chucks are all Sjogren-Hardinge "Speed Chucks". The best. And, generally affordable, too, as these sizes are not very popular. 5C Sjogrens aren't very affordable, due to their popularity.
My 5C setup is a spindle nose piece and a draw tube. Even more precise than a Sjogren, but probably not as precise as the Hardinge HLV-H's integral spindle 5C setup.
The Eagle chuck of the conventional type looks well made. The "set true" variation has a lot of corners it in its design. Especially in the support of the pinion.
Nothing prevents you from converting a non-"set true" Eagle to a "set true" chuck, on an ad hoc basis, however.
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Hey Peter,
Thanks for the reply.
You mentioned that the Eagle is a good design however the adjust true version has lot's of corners, especially around the pinion. I don't really understand what you mean. Is this a "bad" feature or is it just a feature? Would you get one of these? I bought a Hardinge speed chuck however I feel that it is just too large for my lathe. I know that Hardinge built a smaller version of the speed chuck that has about a 7" diameter and this would work better for my lathe, however they are fairly rare. Consequently, I've been looking at the Bison or it's clones.
I look forward to your comments.
Regards,
Dave

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You mentioned that the Eagle is a good design however the adjust true version has lot's of corners, especially around the pinion. I don't really understand what you mean.

On the Eagle conventional 5C chuck (that is, the non-set-true chuck), the chuck body is split into a front and rear half, much like the old Buck or Cushman chucks. The pinion is completely contained within one half and is fully supported. Very strong.
On the set-true chuck, the chuck body is one piece (and is longer, of course) and the outside of the pinion is located by the chuck body, whereas the inside of the pinion is located by an interior separator plate. The pinion is, therefore, cantilevered between the very strong chuck body and the relatively much less strong interior separator.
That's what I meant by cutting corners.

Is this a "bad" feature or is it just a feature?

Looks like they took the easy way out (one piece chuck body) when they went back and designed the set-true version.

Would you get one of these?

If I would buy an Eagle, I would buy the non-set-true model, and then convert it to set-true.
I've done this on a lot of chucks, and I have no doubt that this would yield a superior result.

I bought a Hardinge speed chuck however I feel that it is just too large for my lathe. I know that Hardinge built a smaller version of the speed chuck that has about a 7" diameter and this would work better for my lathe, however they are fairly rare.

Yes, 9" and 10" appear to be the most popular.
Of course, 10" is almost a necessity for 2J, 3J and 22J Speed-Chucks.
I've not seen a 7" in the flesh.
Hardinge also made 3C version of this chuck, and these would likely be quite small.

Consequently, I've been looking at the Bison or it's clones.

The Bison is nice.
A less expensive alternative is the Kalamazoo.
This is really a fixture chuck.
However, it has provisions for attaching a back plate, and it is very well made. Hardened through and through, too.
I have an early Kalamazoo on a 1-1/2-8 back plate, and that chuck has zero runout. Which is good, for if it did have runout there would be very little I could do to correct it as the hardened body won't allow for installing set-true adjusters.
The Kalamazoo is occasionally shown being chucked in a 3-jaw. That is another way to use this chuck. This is possible as the Kalamazoo is perfectly cylindrical from front to back.
All-in-all, I do prefer the Sjogren-Hardinge (AKA, Hardinge-Sjogren and ATS-Sjogren ... ATS Workholding has been making the Sjogren for about the past ten years).
My 10" diameter 2J does look a little strange on my 10 by 20 Logan. ;-)))))
If you have an 8" four-jaw, you can mount even the largest Sjogrens in the four-jaw, and even obtain the functional equivalent of a set-true function. But, then you're spinning a LOT of weight on ... usually ... a rather small spindle.
Choices ... choices ... choices.
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